Ep. 9 Conscious Accountability, David Tate, Yale

Join Suzan and Yale's David Tate as they discuss how conscious accountability can be transformational as opposed to transactional.


January 2023
ExecU Podcast
Episode 9:  Conscious Accountability with David Tate, Yale University

BRIEF SUMMARY OF EPISODE

David C. Tate is a licensed clinical psychologist and an Assistant Clinical Professor in Psychiatry at Yale University. His areas of practice in organizational consulting include coaching and leadership development, conflict resolution, team-building, succession planning and promoting healthy organizational development. 

David is a co-author of Sink or Swim: How Lessons from the Titanic Can Save Your Family Business. He earned a certificate in family business advising from the Family Firm Institute, and serves as the facilitator for the National Association of Corporate Directors Connecticut Chapter’s Family Business Roundtable. He also is the co-founder of the Connecticut Consulting Psychology Group.

Dr. Tate received his B.S. at Cornell University and his Ph.D. in clinical psychology at the University of Virginia. He completed pre- and post-doctoral fellowships at Yale University before joining the faculty.

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KEY TAKEAWAY

 “ In sort of standard accountability, we often think of it as an individual's domain or  sometimes I call it an ‘individual sport’. So in other words, ‘I just need to be responsible for me and the things that I'm supposed to do, and if I do that, then that's being accountable.’ Whereas conscious accountability invites a shared response. Something that we share together that we're also thinking about. [We are thinking about] our larger shared goal and how the people around me are doing and [asking] ‘what do they need in order to achieve the goal?’.”

Share the podcast:

https://execupodcast.buzzsprout.com/share

David’s LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-klepper-39b3a2/

David’s Books:

Sink or Swim: 

https://www.amazon.com/Sink-Swim-Lessons-Titanic-Business/dp/0313398348

Conscious Accountability:

https://www.amazon.com/Conscious-Accountability-Connections-Elevate-Results/dp/1950496716

Conscious Growth Partners:

https://consciousgrowthpartners.com/

Sponsored by Viv Higher Ed: 

https://vivhied.com/

Transcript

David 0:00

In sort of standard accountability. We often think of it as an individual's domain or sometimes I call it an individual sport, so in other words, I just need to be responsible for me and the things that I'm supposed to do. And if I do that, then that's being accountable. Whereas conscious accountability invites, a shared respons. Something that, we share together that we're also thinking about what is our larger shared goal and how are the people around me doing and what do they need in order to achieve the goal?

0:34

welcome to Executive the podcast, bringing you actionable insights from the world's top business school faculty. I'm your host, Suzanne Brinker, and today I'm sharing a conversation with David Tate from the Yale School of Management. And the topic we'll be discussing is conscious accountability.

Suzan 0:50

Hi David. It's so great to have you on the show,

David 0:52

Suzanne. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be,

Suzan 0:56

super curious to hear about your journey. You've done quite a lot of things in your career. Can you just outline, you know, what got you interested in the work that you do, and what was your journey to Yale and your position that you hold there

David 1:07

today? I'll try to give you the highlights here. my interest in psychology goes all the way back to when I was like a kid in junior high school and I found that I would be sitting in homeroom or on the bus and other kids would just tell me kind of their problems, like what was going on, the fight they had with their parents or the challenges they were having with their boyfriend or girlfriend. And and I found that just listening to them and didn't say very much, they would walk away saying, oh, thank you so much for listening. That was really helpful. And so that whatever. Kind of desire impetus was to connect with other people in that way, goes way back. And so I ended up pursuing graduate training in clinical psychology and came to Yale to finish my training. And. For a little while, I considered becoming a researcher and I was on a research track, but discovered that really it was the experience of being with people and working with them directly to affect change for them and, in their lives. That was the thing that really. I was passionate about. So I moved from the research faculty to the clinical faculty at Yale and at the same time started a private practice and eventually found my way into family business consulting. So working with families that are in business together and the challenges. Often creates in terms of either just getting along or transitioning a business from generation to generation going through the succession process can be challenging. So that work led me to also learn more about executive coaching. And it turns out that my skills as psychologists were readily transferable to working with executives. So I began to do more work in organizations with executives and working with their teams. And so a number of years. Went by after, doing that consulting work, a colleague of mine invited me to co-teach a very popular elective at the school of management at Yale called Interpersonal and Group Dynamics. And so I started teaching that with her and that actually led to a number of other um, teaching and coaching opportunities within Yale. So I retained a, an appointment in psychiatry. All along since I came to Yale in 1998, but then started teaching at the School of Management in 2016. And and so that's how I've been, teaching in executive education there which has been a great experience. And I guess the other thing, I'm sort of this interesting kind of hybrid between practice on one hand and education on the other. When I'm not at Yale I'm working with my consulting group, which is known as Conscious Growth Partners. And our work is about helping organizations thrive through better leadership, teamwork, and. So that's the synopsis.

Suzan 3:53

Wow. First of all, I think that was probably a really lucky school bus community that had you on that bus, because I'm not sure every bus has such a compassionate listener on it. And then I also love that you got into family entrepreneurship and that kind of was a good fit for you from the psychological. Perspective as well as then working with executives after that. It just seems like a very natural fit across all these different dimensions of your work. So thank you for sharing. Inspiring. Now, you wrote this book called Conscious Accountability, like the sound of that. How do you define conscious accountability? Why is it an important concept and maybe also, throughout your career, why has that been a concept that has bubbled. In all those different environments that you just gave an overview

David 4:39

of? Yeah, great question. I'll take'em one at a time. We talk about conscious accountability as expanding awareness to create deliberate attentions, take informed actions and be responsible for your impact. So a lot of times, accountability gets framed in a much more narrow. And we are expanding that, that frame in a couple of important ways. So the idea that awareness actually helps us be better at accountability. And that's because when we're more aware of. Our own needs and wants we can be more clear with others about what we expect and what we need. Similarly, when we're more aware of what's going on for other people and what their needs are, we can do a better job at tailoring our approach and creating solutions that are truly win-win solutions when we work with people. And finally, Being aware of like the interdependencies between us and others. In other words, all of our actions and inactions have some kind of impact on other folks. And when we become more aware of that, we can be more responsible for that impact. So that's how we think about conscious accountability. And it's a little bit different from what I call accountability 1.0. In, in three ways. First, when we think about accountability 1.0, the focus is usually just on results. Did you get the thing done or not? Yes or no. Whereas in conscious accountability, we focus both on results. Of course, results are important, but also on relationships. So in other words, how are relationships affected as a result of our working together? And so we bring both of those things together as the focus in conscious accountability. So the second difference, Accountability 1.0 and conscious accountability in, in sort of standard accountability. We often think of it as an individual's domain or like a, like sometimes I call it like a, an individual sport, whereas, so in other words, I just need to be responsible for me and the things that I'm supposed to do. And if I do that, then that's being accountable. Whereas conscious accountability invites a shared respons. And there in terms of accountability is something that we share together that in addition to, paying attention to the things that one is supposed to do themselves, we're also thinking about what is our larger shared goal and how are the people around me doing and what do they need in order to achieve the goal? So there's this. Broader attention to not just yourself, but others around you, and really working together to make sure that we achieve our larger goals. And the third, I think, difference between regular accountability and conscious accountability. Oftentimes when something goes wrong, the first thing people ask is who needs to be held accountable for that? We hear that all the time. And so there's. Slightly backwards looking and almost like blame orientation towards accountability there. Whereas conscious accountability is forward facing in that at the outset of something, it encourages the question, okay, who's gonna be responsible for what we're about to do and when things go wrong, as they inevitably do, the question is, who's responsible for making it better and what did we learn from all of this? So conscious accountability. A learning orientation first and foremost. And and all of these things together make conscious accountability, transformational in its, in, in the way it works, as opposed to accountability 1.0, which is more transactional, right? Like I do my part, you do your part, and we create accountability versus something. Not only gets things done, gets the results that we want, but also builds relationships and creates a virtuous cycle of learning. So that's really the concept in a nutshell and why it's, why it's different from the traditional notions of accountability.

Suzan 8:42

What a lovely set of concepts that you just went over there and I can see how it'd be very relevant for family businesses as well where maybe, there is less of a culture of being careful what you say and, blame is maybe passed quicker than it would be in a non-family business setting because people are just more aware of how fragile those relationships are. I could imagine when children and parents work together or siblings work together, Conscious accountability would be a very key piece of that culture that needs to be in place for the business to have success on the one hand, but also for to feel good to work there and to not feel like this toxic environment.

David 9:24

Yeah. I think a lot of family businesses. Can be great places to work because there, there can be a family feel to them. I think where conscious accountability comes in is really being aware of what aspects of our family and our family values and the way that we our family dynamics. Like what are those? Kind of serve the business and can actually create an environment that embraces and welcomes others into that. And maybe what aspects of our family dynamics do we want to keep out of the business environment and manage differently so some of those things, aren't affecting employees or, and other stakeholders in any kind of negative.

Suzan 10:04

As someone who's never worked in a family business or is not part of a family business. I'm curious, do families naturally understand the value of talking explicitly about what kind of culture they want to create and trying to keep dynamics that might be part of the personal life out of it? Or is that something that they really need, typically need help with and learn and work hard at?

David 10:26

You know, I think. It's like a journey for families to be in family business together. I think those families that have been successful in and have had enjoyed longevity in terms of being able to transition a business over time, many of them have learned the importance of having dialogue of being very intentional. How they want to be together. I think, or it's sometimes in the earlier stages entrepreneurs who've created a business and then want to pass it, down to their families haven't necessarily thought through all of the ramifications of that. Whereas a lot of times if you get into like second, third, fourth generation family businesses, they've seen, they have some history together about what's worked well and what hasn't worked well in terms of, their family dynamics or generational transitions. And so there's a lot of, opportunity to learn there if they are willing to look at that. If they're, conscious and interested in of paying attention. There's a lot of really great lessons available that can help them, continue to get better and better over.

11:32

executive. The podcast is sponsored by ViiV Higher Education, a full service marketing agency and enrollment strategy consulting firm for colleges and universities. ViiV is passionate about executive education and lifelong learning. Today's episode is brought to you in collaboration with the Yale School of Management.

Suzan 11:51

In the book, you set up a couple of tensions. Number one, I think we've already touched on, the tension between results and relationships and how they can actually be complimentary. That, leaders and managers don't have to prioritize results over relationships, that they can go together. And then you also write about, how people don't necessarily have to choose between these two personas of a hard charging task master on the one hand, and an easygoing people pleaser on the other. Maybe that resonates with a lot of people, right? Who are in leadership roles and who feel like I can't win. Either people like me, but I'm not getting the results and I'm too easy on them and I lose respect that way. Or I get the results that I want because I'm this task master. I'm constantly on people asking them for work and results, but then datas like me and they feel bad about working here. So can you talk a little bit about how specifically people can kind of transcend that?

David 12:44

Tension. Yeah. I think, you're, I think, what you're pointing towards here is that, yeah, sometimes people prefer or gravitate more towards you know, in in their own minds, even like the importance of driving results or the importance of, maintaining strong relationships at all costs. And, and our point is leaning too heavily in either direction can impact performance relationships or both. And that a balanced approach where you're actually prioritizing both together actually ends up creating a better formula for sustained success because, if you get like to what you were saying earlier, if you get the results, but if you burn people out along the way, you know you're not gonna really, you're gonna have to rebuild the team again and again as you experience more attrition. But if you're really paying attention both to to people what they need, helping support them and really working to help drive success at the same time, that actually ends up working well for a couple of reasons. If you think about it, teams really benefit when they perform. It's much more fun and rewarding when your team is winning, when you are doing well together. And so the experience of coming together and having success really fuels connection. Just as having connection and having good feelings about your team also can be very encouraging. people to wanna continue to work together to support each other towards the goals that they're setting. It is a false dichotomy. To focus on one or the other. But I do think that many leaders or managers can fall into that trap and get, get stuck in one or the other instead of really holding both together Totally.

Suzan 14:35

And overcorrect too by things are feeling wrong, so I have to be harder on the team or I have to try to be less task oriented. I could see how that would be a trap that's really easy to fall into. We're also at a moment in our history where, Themes are really relevant because the pandemic had people work from home by force. For a long time. Now we're at a place where people are, organizations are evaluating, should we be hybrid? Should we be remote? Is everyone in the office all the time? And it has so many implications for how people are being held accountable, how they hold themselves accountable, what accountability actually means, and how it's measured. The great resignation certainly was a sign that a lot of people were just not willing to go back to. As they were. Yeah. What have you found in your conversations with executives over the past couple of years in particular related to accountability and how they're grappling with that

David 15:27

topic? Yeah, I mean, I think this is a really relevant conversation when we think about the new culture of remote and hybrid. Like you're saying, hybrid in, in many in many industries is here to stay. And remote work certainly is the norm in many of the teams that I've had the opportunity to consult with. And I think where conscious accountability comes in is number one, really having conversations about what accountability means and how do we hold ourselves to high standards of account? Both in terms of the results we're producing, but also in terms of how we are all responsible for building the teams that we work in together. And I think we need to. Particularly, when we're in remote and hybrid settings, we need to be much more intentional about the relationship side of the equation. That, when we're together, when we're in person, we have all of these moments where we can connect with people, build relationships, like on the way to the meeting, after the meeting, over lunch catching people, popping into somebody's office and having a chat. We don't have. Opportunity when we're in remote environments as much. And so we can lose out on really developing that connective tissue that really helps hold teams together. So when we think about hybrid situations, we just need to be more intentional about creating opportunities and moments and ways for people to have. Time to connect, to learn more about each other, to understand everybody's context and what they need from one another in order to be successful.

Suzan 17:11

In the book, you introduce the connect framework. You write that it provides people with the tools to better relate to everyone in their professional and personal life. What are the seven practices of conscious accountability that tie to that connect framework that you outline in the book?

David 17:28

Yeah. So the connect framework is really we think about it as a roadmap to help people. Think about how do we actually create conscious accountability because, I'm sure you're aware accountability is a term that gets spoken about a lot but, one of the things when I was doing the research and when my co-authors and I were working to put this together, we noticed that, there wasn't that much available in terms of the, how part of it. How do we actually, you know, A better kind of accountability. So we put together these seven practices and it's, it the acronym that we, put together was connect. For two reasons. We chose that word. One is when we become more conscious we make connections between things, like we connect the dots in our head. We, and so there's that level of kind of becoming more aware, more conscious by making connections in our mind. And then the second part is the importance. Connecting with other people and the importance of human connections in doing accountability better. So there's a double meaning in the choice of the word connect, let me tell you about these seven practices. The first practice is creating clarity, which is really about establishing clear goals and shared expectations. And this. Really important because it's impossible to be accountable to something if you really weren't clear on what it is you were being accountable to. And so this is, this requires some negotiation and getting on the same page with other people. And it's, it actually takes a lot of. More work than you would think. Getting to that point of real clarity where everyone knows where we're going, why we're going there, and what their part in it is. So that's the first practice. The second practice is about opening up engagement. And the idea here is that, you want to. Yet everyone, including yourself, feeling really engaged in the work that you're doing. And that engagement hinges on two things. One is commitment, being really committed. And that means being in touch with your own motivation for why this matters to you. And maybe understanding how your piece relates to the larger goals. As well. so it's connecting to that commitment and then also creating psychological safety. So the idea here is that people need to feel safe in order to share their ideas, to ask questions that might be important for them to ask, but they might feel vulnerable asking. And even to push back and sh and give counter arguments, sometimes people just want to go along to get along and they might not feel safe. So it's really important that leaders. Do, take the time to create that safety and build that trust that allows people to really give their best engagement, participation and and sharing. So that's the the second practice. The third practice is nailing it. And so that basically means doing what you say, you'll. So that's oftentimes that's what we think about when we think about accountability is that kind of like integrity of your words and your actions matching. And, it sounds easy enough like Nike commercial, just do it. Right? But the the truth is that. We all experience popup priorities that emerge and competing commitments that can get in the way of us executing on the things that we said we would do. And so how do we manage those things and do it in a way that keeps everyone informed and on the same page. That brings us to the next practice, which is noticing. So as we are working to nail it Often we may need to pay attention to our own experience of what's happening within ourself and what's going on with other team members. And rather than just of delegating things and forgetting about them and then being surprised when suddenly they, they didn't get done. This noticing offers an opportunity to check in with other people to make sure that they are clear, that they're still clear on what they're doing to make sure that they have the resources that they. If there are any courts, corrections that are necessary, noticing offers the opportunity to do that kind of midstream. So that's the fourth practice that brings us to the next practice, which is exchanging feedback. And this is really important to, promote awareness on one hand and learning on the other. In terms of trying to be more self aware, the thing that no leader can know about themselves is the impact that they're having on someone else. And so in order to get that awareness, we need to have feedback. And so the question is how do we get better at soliciting feedback, at receiving feedback and giving feedback to others, and doing that in a way that, again, that promotes learning that can be used to help everyone up level and get better. So that brings us to the next practice, which is claiming it so that is all about owning the results. And so in order to claim it, we first have to know what the results were. So we have to go back and see if we achieved what we wanted to achieve. So having really clear metrics helps out with this. And then also on the kind of interpersonal or relationship side noticing what our, what the impacts were on other people and other stakeholders. So paying attention to all those things. Consolidating what the learnings were. And then that brings us to the last practice, which is trying again. And the idea here is that we take all of those learnings, all of the things that we just figured out through the things that we just did, and applying those learnings to the. Whatever the next cycle, the next project, the next meeting. And the idea here is that we can continue to improve by iterating gradually on what's working for us and discontinuing the things that are not working for us. Those are the seven practices,

Suzan 23:36

the connect framework. I love it. There's so much good stuff in there and it makes it easier to remember to have an acronym, so well done. Thank you. Can you tell a story maybe of an executive who used the Connect framework to transform, either themselves or their organization or both?

David 23:54

Yeah. I've got two examples in mind, and they're both leaders that, that I've been working with recently. In one instance this is a leader of a small services firm who was taking over the reins after his partner retired. And basically it, it was a very it is a very successful firm and. He's finding his way and finding what his style is and how it's, different from his predecessor and in that needing to get really clear with himself on what his goals are. Not just for the firm, but even for. His leadership and his life and how he wants it, all the pieces to fit together. So the first practice of creating clarity was a big part of our work. So then he could put forward a very clear vision of where the firm is going. and how everyone can support that. Now along the way. Another practice that was really important was exchanging feedback and as part of his coaching, which is true for many of the coaching programs. When I work with executives, we do some 360 feedback and so we solicited feedback from from his colleagues and it was really helpful for him. See in a little bit more, in more detail some of what was, I won't say blind spots, because a lot of the things, he could say, oh yeah that's true for me. But got a little bit more detail on the impact that some of his behaviors were having on colleagues, and really it was really helpful in helping him. Think about his approach and to be able to make some important adjustments that actually resulted in better engagement from other people. Things he could do to create more sort of psychological safety from other people. Some adjustments that he was able to make that would help other people nail it and execute. And. I have to say this particular client was really good at claiming it and owning his impact, and that was really helpful in his kind of efforts to continue to uplevel his results in that. Trying again. So the framework isn't always applied in a order in terms of all, in a rigorous

Suzan 26:18

way. Like you can pick and choose a little bit of the priorities that you think are most important to.

David 26:23

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's great. And these practices sometimes people are really strong in some of them and are, and have, and are challenged in, in others, or it may even depend on the relationship wow, I'm really accountable in my work life, but I'm less accountable in my personal relationships and so helping people think about you. How do they want to be? What do they want these relationships to, to look like and how do they want to be in them? Just bringing some more awareness to that so that people can be more intentional and and be accountable, to themselves in a way. In terms of how they want to be. So there's a second example and that's another firm that we're working with. And in this one it's an interesting situation, not uncommon actually, where the firm is going through a period of really intense growth. And it's a firm that has. It's a good to great story. They have a really strong culture but we're really interested in the idea of how do we preserve that really good culture as we grow? And so I was invited to come do a workshop and I presented the connect framework and the idea of conscious accountability and it really re. And so we ended up getting involved with this organization, helping them take a look at their culture, and we did a culture assessment of the entire organization looking at what culture do we have today? What would be the ideal culture in the future that we would need to have that would help us achieve our strategic objectives? And. What is the delta between those two and what are some strategies or ideas for how we can move the firm in the right direction? And so this required an openness to really. Ask those questions to really listen to the feedback that came back from, we did surveys and focus groups and interviews and really tried to get our finger on the pulse of the organization. And you know what we've been able to do is to really create. Uh, Very intentional plan for them to work on a couple of areas that they identified as really important for both preserving the best of the culture that they have, but also continuing to up level and focus on some areas that need attention, particularly as they're. So the connect framework has been, again, helpful in looking at particular pieces of how their organization is functioning. And it's also something that we plan to do some leadership and management training, really helping equip the managers with a lot of skills that are gonna hopefully help them. Reach their their growth goals and their targets while preserving the great culture that they've had all along. Yeah.

Suzan 29:33

I love the intentionality too, behind saying we have a really good culture. That's our strength. Mm-hmm. maybe it's built on a lot of collaboration and good relationships, and how do we retain that when we scale? I could imagine that being a really overwhelming. Problem, to think, oh, we might double our staff in the next year. How do we keep this culture intact? Which is our biggest strength. So I love that

David 29:54

example. Yeah. Thanks. We at Conscious Growth Partners, we do, we've done a lot of work with private equity backed firms, and this is exactly the challenge that many of them are dealing with. They're going through massive growth. They've been, pretty successful and have attracted the interest of other groups that want to, fund them. But that also creates another challenge, which is how do you You know, preserve the best of their organizations while going through growth, while, having to maybe change team members. And how do you get the team working together and moving steadily towards what are sometimes very, steep. Growth targets and so it's, yeah. The faster

Suzan 30:38

you're growing, the more is at stake too. That's

David 30:41

right. It's definitely a lot at stake and so it's a very dynamic and challenging folks to be working with and we certainly enjoy it.

Suzan 30:49

Awesome. The connect framework, you just gave two really great examples of how you've used it, the book conscious accountability. You've done a lot of deep work in, in those spaces. Is there something. Now looking ahead at your own career and your work that is really keeping you up at night or there's a problem, a new problem, or another facet of accountability that you're still looking to really tackle.

David 31:13

Yeah. Thanks for that question. I think for me, one of the challenges that I see over and over again is, this question of how do we. Leaders and CEOs who often have very limited bandwidth, right? To make the time and to prioritize that, which is important in the long run versus that which is appears to be urgent in the short run. I find that's a really tough challenge because there's only so many hours in a day. How do we help people prioritize the things that are really the most important and the things that are gonna actually create sustainability in terms of the organization versus, just, running so hard. You end up being

Suzan 32:02

productive versus truly being productive. Actually, I just interviewed Bob Posen from MIT who is the former president of Fidelity about this very question. Yeah. So hopefully you'll be able to listen to that episode. It was really great conversation as well. Oh, that sounds great. Cool. If you were to take a step back, what advice would you give current or emerging leaders who are hoping to make a big impact on their organizations?

David 32:27

I would like to just remind them that as a leader, it's really important to focus on your own transformation and your own development as a leader. That's, that is the thing that is within your control. There's so much that's not within your direct control, but working on yourself always is within your control. And so there's, there needs to be ways for people to continually grow and evolve and develop that. And I do believe that the Connect framework offers an experiential learning process that allows them to continue to grow and evolve and that, if they wanna make a big impact on their organization, start with yourself and lead continue to keep your. In the, front and center, not in a selfish way. It can be in the service of other people, but in order to have the biggest impact on other people, it's often really helpful to make sure you're continuing to grow and evolve.

Suzan 33:29

You've been at Yale for some time. In your estimation, what makes the executive learning environment at Yale School of Management unique?

David 33:36

Well, Our mission at the Yale School of Management is to educate leaders for both business and society. So in partnership with our learners, we create mission aligned and rigorous learning journeys that connect executive leaders with world class faculty at the school of management and at the university more broadly. And it's very important to us that every learning opportunity have really clearly defined outcomes and that we achieve these outcomes by the close of each program. you know, We really try to empower leaders to create positive and lasting impact on their organizations and their communities and the broader world.

Suzan 34:19

Yeah. As I always say in these interviews, there's a lot of awareness, obviously, around MBAs and degree based experiences that executives could seek out at top business schools like the Yale School Management. Sure. What people maybe don't realize so much is that there are also individual courses or certificates. So is there anything at Yale that you would recommend to someone listening to this who's thinking, I really think I could level up through a course from a top

David 34:43

business? Yeah, that's a great question. Yes, of course we have our MBA and our executive MBA programs, but we also have a number of programs. Leaders can just sign up for, and there's one call the Yale Global Executive Leadership Program, which is a 10 month program that really helps leaders really expand their impact, particularly if they're working. Across national boundaries and are working on a larger global stage. We also have a couple of programs that are focused specifically on women leaders. So we have a women's leadership program which is offered in person live online and asynchronously. So there's a number of ways that leaders can participate in that program. We also have a Women on Boards program, so this is really for women who want to serve. Or who are serving on corporate and private boards and helping them be more effective and powerful forces for organizations development. From that perspective. And then finally we also have a a program on global virtual teams. And this is an asynchronous version of our famous core MBA course. And it's really about Interesting. That

Suzan 35:57

sounds timely. So it's for people the permanent virtual environment. Cool.

David 36:02

That's right. So it's about, how do we really build those connections while working remotely, like some of the things we were talking about earlier.

Suzan 36:09

This has been really fantastic and insightful. I will end with the question I ask everyone at the end of the interview, which is, in a nutshell, what does leadership mean to you?

David 36:18

To me, leadership really means tapping into yourself and drawing on your own gifts and your own strengths, your own lived experiences, and your own energy to mobilize yourself and others. Towards achieving some larger goal or mission or purpose. I love that

Suzan 36:40

definition. Thank you so much for being on the show. It was a real honor to be able to speak with you about this topic of conscious accountability and more. And again, thank you so

David 36:50

much, Susan. It's been such a pleasure to be with you today. Thanks for having me on the show.

36:57

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