Ep. 5 Leading High-Performing Teams, Rodrigo Jordan, UPenn

Join Suzan and UPenn's Rodrigo Jordan as they discuss how to build and lead high-performing teams.



January 2023
ExecU Podcast
Episode 5: Leading High Performing Teams with Rodrigo Jordan, University of Pennsylvania (UPenn) 

BRIEF SUMMARY OF EPISODE

Rodrigo Jordan is currently a Senior Fellow at the Center for Leadership and Change Management under The Wharton School at UPenn. He is widely recognized in Latin America for his work in leadership and innovation, and his book, Experiential Leadership: From Theory to Practice (Spanish, Prentice-Hall 2008). Jordan regularly runs seminars on leadership and the development of high performance teams to a wide variety of clients throughout Latin America and beyond, including extensive work with the Wharton Leadership Ventures program. Rodrigo Jordan holds a Ph.D in Organizational Administration from Oxford University. 

Fun fact about our guest: Rodrigo Jordan is also considered one of Chile's most accomplished mountaineers, having led several successful expeditions to the Himalayas and Antarctica! 

Make sure to subscribe to the ExecU Podcast to learn from the most forward-thinking business professors about how to build a better future. 

KEY TAKEAWAY

 “Your main purpose as a leader is… not to attain whatever dream, whatever purpose, whatever goal, whatever results you want to achieve. On the contrary, your main objective as the leader is to set up the best team to achieve those results.”

ADDITIONAL LINKS:

Share the podcast: https://execupodcast.buzzsprout.com/share

Rodrigo’s LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/rodrigo-jordan-b213764/

Rodrigo’s Book: 

https://www.amazon.com/Experiential-Leadership-Principles-Rodrigo-Jordan-ebook/dp/B08C4LS9QT

Sponsored by Viv Higher Ed: 

https://vivhied.com/

Transcript

Rodrigo 0:00

your main purpose as a leader is, is not to, and this is a very important thing. It's not to attain whatever dream, whatever purpose, whatever goal, whatever results you want to achieve. On the contrary, your main objective as the leader is to set up the best team. To achieve those results.

0:22

welcome to Executive the podcast, bringing you actionable insights from faculty at the world's top business schools. I'm your host, Suzanne Brinker, and today I'm really thrilled to share with you a conversation with Rodrigo Jordan, who is at Wharton Ex. Education at the University of Pennsylvania, and we will be talking about leading high performing teams.

Suzan 0:44

Rodrigo, hi. It's so great to have you on the show.

Rodrigo 0:47

It's my pleasure and honor to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me on.

Suzan 0:51

You have such a fascinating background. Because not only do you have extensive leadership teaching, research, and consulting experience, you are also it sounds like, quite well known in Chile, um, for the work that you do. And then you also have this really interesting mountaineering backup ground. And I'm so excited to talk to you about all of those things today. But before we get into that, would you mind just outlining your journey from first getting interested in leadership and studying it and teaching it to the position that you have at Wharton today?

Rodrigo 1:22

I have been Very lucky or honored or grateful in my life to have sort of two kinds of life. One is, as a really serious mountaineer and we can talk a lot about that, but I've eventually, after many years, been to many expeditions all over the world, to the to Africa, to Alaska, the United States. so that it's one part of my life. And the other one is my academic life and. I did my studies undergraduate here in Chile, but then I did my doctorate at Oxford University on the innovation required to alleviate poverty. So, I didn't know anything about leadership, Nothing about leadership, but eventually I found myself doing a PhD research on how innovation processes would work to help alleviate poverty. And on the other hand, I was also eventually leading uh, Everest Expeditions and, and, and I had to join those two worlds on, on terms of leadership. And eventually I've met Mike Uem, a full-time professor at Wharton, who's also very much interested in, in leadership. And he's also using mountaineering examples to show how leadership can work. this is about maybe 20 years ago, and that got me into Wharton and the leadership ventures and the. So that's, that's a summary, as quick as I can go.

Suzan 2:45

Thank you. Yeah, that's so fascinating. And leadership can mean so many different things in so many different contexts. And it sounds like there are three that we'll for sure unpack today. Number one is leadership and mountaineering. Number two your work that you're doing on what makes a high performing team, I'm assuming that's very relevant when you're climbing a mountain together as well. But then what you just mentioned too, studying how to alleviate poverty and how to lead in that context. So can you maybe start by just defining some of the problems that you were looking to solve that have happened as a result of working with other human beings on solving a complex challenge and how the work that you're doing now is deriving insights from your attempt to solve these problems.

Rodrigo 3:27

I link very strongly what do have just suggested, Suzan in terms of leadership and teamwork there? I would say two sides of the same coin. Sometimes, the media elevates somebody as the great leader. You know, Nelson Mandela, Steve Jobs, Margaret Toucher Sister Teresa. But if you go and ask them and talk to them, they were very capable in setting teams together, not working on their. And I think what your main purpose as a leader is, is not to, and this is a very important thing. It's not to attain whatever dream, whatever purpose, whatever goal, whatever results you want to achieve. On the contrary, your main objective as the leader is to set up the best team. To achieve those results. So sometimes leaders think in order to achieve this, I would need this kind of team. Sort of like Mission Impossible, if you recall the television program. So my suggestion is the other way around. My main concern is, The get the best, the what I call the exceptional team together, and together with that team lead the way to achieve not only important results, but exceptional results and achieving a certain purpose. So, so there is a switch there on what, in my view is the main reason to lead, huh? Is to, is to set up exceptional teams, and that is valid for everyth. For getting a, a team together from governments to try to alleviate poverty in the southern part of Chile or to get a team that wants to climb k2, the second highest mountain in the world.

Suzan 5:13

And I imagine the difference comes in as early as just the vision setting stage as early as somebody sets out to do anything, you define what success is going to look like and what you seem to be suggesting is if I'm going to start solving a problem, I'm not going to even really define what success is going to look like and then assemble a team that can help me achieve. But rather I involve everyone who's going to be working together in defining that success. Did I understand it correctly?

Rodrigo 5:41

That's exactly it. If, if you think, for example I work for an organization, I'm a member of the board of of organization in Chile called America Solidarity. Solidarity America or something if I would translate. And the founder of that organization said, Well, the only thing we wanna do is work to alleviate poverty in Latin America. That was all his statement. There was not, not a specific goal or whatever. And eventually with the team, we start focusing our efforts in children and of course, you need to be able to have measurements, to have KPIs if you wanna speak about them. Climbing a peak. You need come one, come two, come three in order to get to the summit. And the word purpose comes to mind. The main purpose is something that you build together. In terms of mountaineering, For example, when I started climbing, I just wanted to climb Everest, say the highest peak. Nowadays, 50 years later, I really don't care what peak we're gonna go. I much care who I'm gonna climb that peak. I'm gonna spend two months with this persons, climbing together, sharing a tent, being miserably wet, tired, hungry and so you wanna share that experience. So, to me that sharing, that team is much important than the exact peak that we're gonna.

Suzan 7:02

Wow. Yeah, maybe you wanna find people first that you wanna do anything with, and then set the goals together. That's a really important mindset shift for many people, I assume.

Rodrigo 7:10

Well, I'm not the only one thinking in this way. Jim Collins. In his great book, Good To Great was, he says, You need to get the right people on the bus. And then we decide where to go. And he sites a story, which is in his book, which is very impressive. It's about Hewlett and Packard. When they had their first board meeting of Hewlett Pack, say, Okay, this is who we are. This is how we're gonna work. Let's say what we're gonna do in the next board meeting. That's enough for today. So the first board meeting was just to set up the team that is gonna achieve something. They would decide on the second board.

Suzan 7:46

Did you have this mindset when you first started in mountaineering? No. Can you tell us a little bit about the transf information?

Rodrigo 7:53

No. No, whatsoever. When I was young, you know, I was 18, 20, 22, I just, my dream was I wanna be at the top of Mount Everest, so I need to gather the very best team that helped me achieve what I want. So we started in that way. We set up a team together. But we didn't climb the peak. Our first expedition was a total failure, not necessarily because of this conception, but then I realized why wait, wait a minute. And to tell you the truth, the first time we climb Mount Everest, we did that by a very, very difficult route up the mountain. You know the normal route is, it's, the normal route is through Nepal and you know the Kubu Ice? No, no. We went through the east face called the kung phase. By the way, it's only been climb three times by us. The Americans we're a joint expedition, British American and the Indians, and that's it. So it's a very difficult route. I personally just wanted be on the summit. I couldn't care less about which route we're gonna take, but the team decided if we're gonna do this, let's. Properly, quote unquote, and do this, giving the mountain, the, the, the best chances to beat us. So we're gonna go by a very difficult route. And so we went. So you see, you start changing what you want to, what the team wants,

Suzan 9:08

Give the mountain the best chance to beat us. That was the reason.

Rodrigo 9:12

It's called. New ethics in mountaineering, mountaineers all over the world are achieving incredible things. The latest and most famous is Alex Holland, Climb of Sem El Capita 3000 foot rock wall with nothing, no rope, no aids, no nothing, just free, just solo. It's a documentary, Won an Oscar He made something like 4,000 movements. One mistake in any of those movements would've meant his total death. But he did it. So, they're pushing the limits of what is possible among mountaineers.

Suzan 9:45

What happens to shared meaning making when you flip the goal setting process on its head a little bit, and it doesn't start with one leader who's trying to recruit team members to meet a goal, but rather who finds good people to set goals with what happens to shared meaning when failure occurs or when success occurs.

Rodrigo 10:04

The thing is, one step back before that, you need to gather the team in and speak with him what kind of challenge you're facing. And for this, let me cite Ronald Htz from Harvard University school Kennedy School of Government. He wrote an incredible book back in 1995 Leadership without Easy Answers, and he distinguishes two kinds of challenges, technic. And adaptive challenges. If you are confronting a technical challenge, maybe somebody knows the answer. If your car breaks, you go to with a to the mechanic and he'll find out what's wrong. Maybe you don't know, but somebody will. leadership in that case, it's different when you find adaptive challenges in those where nobody knows the. Just a short example, Anala Medical, the Chancellor in Germany were confronting the pandemic. She said, We don't know. Nobody knows how We're confronting this pandemic. We're stepping on a very thin layer of ice, and we need to take this day by day. That's an adaptive challenge when you're confronting adaptive challenge. The only way you can do that is give that challenge back to the team. So we as a team need to find out. What are we gonna do? How are we gonna confront this challenge? And so decision is not yours because you don't know. There's nobody you gonna go and ask. Once that established, what happens in the meeting is everybody says, All right, I'm responsible as well for this. So let's get into it and start.

Suzan 11:36

Yeah, and I assume that there is a difference in when failure happens and when success happens in how a team that is solving an adaptive challenge and has started by defining the problem and and defining the goals together, response to failure and success, then a team that's just taking orders from a top down leader

Rodrigo 11:56

at my age. I don't believe that much in successes and failures in Spanish, you say you, you are a failure. You are a success. that's the way we say, Mm, not you did have a failure or you did have a success. So in English, it's more considering, you know, the, the success and the failures. You had a failure. Today, you have a success tomorrow in Chile and in in Spanish. You tend to qualify. People ask failures, completely failures. And I tend to avoid that. I don't believe in either of them because I, I've climbed many peaks and I fail many peak. And of all of those, those are incredible experiences of which to take out important lessons on how you're gonna confront the next challenge. So I believe much more in. And that's what we do in Warden Experiential Education. The thing that comes out from your experiences, and the way we do that is you, you put them together, you make them confront a challenge, and even if they're successful or failed in the, a actual outcome of that, a challenge, the most valuable outcome is what did I learn from that success or failure? Or what did we learn from that success or.

Suzan 13:15

and do students intuitively grasp that concept? When you work with Whartons, I don't know if you work with undergraduate students as well, or with graduate students and professionals only, but is that something that resonates easily with the people you teach there?

Rodrigo 13:30

Well, we have different publics. You know, we have undergrads, we have MBA students, and we have executives, and so their, their background is totally different. Let me tell you a little bit about the MBA program. We have what is called leadership ventures, in which we do nothing in the classroom. We take groups of maybe 36 or 24 multiples of six, and I'll explain you why or 30. A week of a very important challenge. We take them into the Atta Kama Desert here in Chile to the Patagonian Forest, to the Crossing New Zealand. it's what we call a leadership venture. So they're go into a challenge, a physical and expedition kind of challenge. Some of those students have never camped. So they go in there and so they're gonna be tired. You know, they're gonna be wet, sometimes they're gonna be miserable. But what we do is not just say, This is what we're gonna try and traverse or climb, is what happens every day. And so every day we select among those students a leader of the day. You're a group of six or a team of six. You, you are the leader of this day. And what you need to do is take this group from point A and I give them a map at a point in a map point B. There you go. And we as instructors stand behind rather than guiding in at as it's usually done in mountaineering rather than guiding. From the front, you stay behind and you don't, you don't interfere. They take their decisions, they do whatever they do. So if they get lost, you know they're getting lost, you know, they're taking the wrong turn. You go with them, you don't correct them, you will intervene only if it's gonna be, you know, a very serious and in danger. But if not, you don't interfere. The thing is we camp early. We camp at four o'clock rather than six or seven. Why? Because the most important thing of that day is what? This was invented by the military in the United States, the after action review. So the team will give this leader feedback positive and not so positive. You know, what did you did today, what you didn't do, what you should have done, et cetera. And that happens on Monday afternoon, following Tuesday. Next day, another guy or another woman takes the role as a leader of the day. And so they, by Friday, You cannot imagine how that leader, who has heard all of the feedbacks that been given to the previous leaders, how he leads best because he applies what the lessons he, he or she recollected from, from the

Suzan 16:10

exercise.

16:12

executive. The podcast is sponsored by ViiV Higher Education, a full service marketing agency and enrollment strategy consulting firm for colleges and universities. ViiV is passionate about executive education and lifelong learning. Today's episode is brought to you in collaboration with Wharton Executive Education at the University of Pennsylvania.

Suzan 16:33

Wow. I don't know if I wanna go on an expedition like that or if it sounds really, really terrifying. but it sounds useful either way. Oh,

Rodrigo 16:42

no, no. You know, we, That's the other thing we've learned from this exercise, and we learn it the hard way. You don't need to put the people in panic conditions. You just need to get them out of their comfort zone. They don't realize this, but they're maybe two kilometers away from a hospital to a certain extent. So, so it's not real danger. It's more uncomfortable. You get them out of their comfort zone, but you don't get them. You know, you need to regulate the activity. You don't, don't need not to get them anxious or even get into a panic state. We use the metaphor of a traffic light. You don't want the green to be totally comfort. You don't want the red to be totally scared. You want the yellow, so you're a little bit out of your comfort zone, but that's where you learn best.

Suzan 17:26

I do wanna know why it's multiples of six. You said you could explain that

Rodrigo 17:30

because they work in 10 R for three. And two tents make a rope team of six. Alright, so you can have five, but then you're not using it. The the best optimal way, your resources. So six, they stick together, they rope together, they cook together, they live together for those five weeks. It's more of practical reason than.

Suzan 17:50

Got it. I thought there was maybe some sort of a, magic kind of leadership formula where teams six are better. No, but,

Rodrigo 17:57

but, but let me tell you what we've discovered, and this is back by science teams of a number greater than nine 10, become. Not that manageable or they, or they start spreading into sub-teams, even if it's not formal in subtle ways. So an ideal team is between five and nine. So seven is a very good team for a team to stick together. If you have 15 people in the team, they won't be working as a team. They, they'll probably meet together as a team, but then they will have in subtle ways, different teams under the.

Suzan 18:36

Interesting. There's an actionable insight for a leader who is maybe looking at their org chart right now and wondering how to make things work a little bit better,

Rodrigo 18:43

Yeah. When you have 15 direct reports you should review that because I'm not sure that's the best way of leading a team, of leading an organiz. I

Suzan 18:53

mean, 15 direct reports is probably also a lot to manage for anybody who's still hoping to think and get work done on their own. So speaking of those insights that we can derive from the amazing stories you've told, You are taking people out of their comfort zone, out of their normal surroundings. Should leaders do something like that? Maybe don't take them to the Patagonia Forest, but take them somewhere for three days. Well, what we do,

Rodrigo 19:18

what we do in executive educations at Warden because we cannot take executives for nine days to the Patagonia because it's, it's again, experiences that they can learn from. One of them is they actually make a film in a day, a short film, and so that they're giving classes in the morning on how to manage a camera, lightning system, sound and everything and they have three hours to go. They need to write. A script out of a story that they probably would know because it's something personal. And then make something like a five or seven minute film. They go out filming. So they need to assign themselves as director, producer, sound engineer, lightning engineer, actors and everything in groups of seven or eight. And that's it. And finally, after two or three days they. They'll get the help from a professional editor and eventually they will have something like what we call an Oscar night type of awards ceremony. But they, they have a full day of making a film. That's an experience in itself, and for them, it's. Totally new. So you can devise different experiences, which I would suggest teams should go. The important thing is the reflection after it. The what we've called and we've discussed the after action review. What did we get from this experience? Though we, we learned that we could apply in our everyday work, and that needs to be designed in order for people to really extract the lessons they've learned from that team exercise.

Suzan 20:48

Is there something that you, after all the amazing experiences that you've had leading expeditions, teaching at Wharton and elsewhere being really well recognized in Sheila for your leadership work, that you still are looking to crack a problem where you're like, I really want to understand this thing better. Is there something essentially that's still keeping you up at night?

Rodrigo 21:11

there's, there's, there's many things. One of them, I was discussing this the other day at Wharton with our students a top team needs to have three main characteristics. Technical skills. Of course, they need to know what they're working at. You're gonna be operated on a room, on a certain room. You want the. Surgeon. The best anest. The theologist, the best nurse So you need technical knowledge. That's it. Then you need interpersonal knowledge, capacity, skills that relate to each other, and we're talking about teamwork, leadership, communications, negotiations, all of that, and that it's common to all of teamwork. but the. capacities is what we call personal skills. It has to do with personal knowledge of you knowing about yourself, and that to me is still mystery on how when we, for example, work with executives at Wharton, how impressed they are when we do exercise for them. Evaluate themselves. They know a lot about accounting, about finance, amount, even, how to deal with teams. They know, they do have incredible social skills. They know how to present, they know how to introduce, they are wonderful in conversation over dinner time. They know little about themselves. They understand a little bit less than in those, these two other worlds. And that is to me, very strange. How is it, Why is it that we, in our educational system, in our work system, we do not truly validate and truly express the sense of people knowing themselves. I think that leaders don't spend much time. And I wouldn't say spend, invest time in knowing the. That is something I'm trying to crack.

Suzan 22:57

Is it maybe that leaders don't want to know that much about themselves? Is it maybe a scary place to be, to understand alongside your strengths, your shortcomings, and how you might be perceived by others on a daily basis?

Rodrigo 23:11

Yeah, but that's the. You, you might be right. You know, it, it might be scary. So I, you know, hide myself in, in actions, in orders, and that, that's fine. However, per people are gonna perceive. And so you perceive yourself as you think you are being perceived. And if you ask the other people, they say something totally different. And, and this might be even positive, people think, I'm not a leader. I've, I've never led, And people will say, Well, of course you're a leader. So it's, it's also in positive ways. That is why we recommend doing this with Coaches with somebody that helps you doing this. Somebody that helps you manage things express them, talk about and helps you developed your crucibles, I would say. so it might be scary, but if you get help, you can reduce that, and the advantage is to get to know yourself are very important. I'm an introvert. If I do the M B T I tests. I'm an introvert to the surprise of many people that know me I didn't know as well. So I was able to do classes and speak to you on an interview. But at the end of the day, when I get home, I don't wanna speak to. And the one who suffers this, well, not anymore because they're grown up, is my daughters and my wife. All right? So once you've learned that you're introvert, that you need time to recover yourself, that helps if, if somebody helps you identify your good things and your not so good.

Suzan 24:40

I think that would resonate with a lot of people who need that time at the end of the day, or even in between meetings and other things that they do at work, just to recharge and find that steadfast core of yourself from which you want to lead rather than from fight or flight response. You also said that it's maybe not enough to take the Myers Briggs or the Strength Finder as a team Once a year. There is a more powerful way to learn about yourself, which is to work with a coach,

Rodrigo 25:08

which they will use, which, and they will use all these kind of tests. That's undoubtedly, but the coach will help you. Read the outcomes of those tests, you know, and, and so work with them and maybe not just one of them, the Mya Briggs or, or the Hogan, or, you know, you, you can work with them and they change cause you as a leader, Change as well. when I was 20, I led from one way than the, now that I'm 60, it's different, it's not only your teams, it's not only your conditions and not only the context. You as well change.

Suzan 25:42

Yeah. And I know you said it's still keeping you up at night. Exactly how to address that challenge that out of the three. Capabilities that people need to lead the technical knowledge to interpersonal skills and team leadership. And then the third being the personal or self knowledge, that's still something that you're trying to, to really figure out. Have you seen anything at Wharton, whether it's a course or a program or anything like that, that really tries to get at that warden

Rodrigo 26:08

school? I'm, I'm not making any advertisement here, but they've, they've invest. Lots of resources in giving coaching to the MBAs and to the executive programs. We are running a and p, the advanced management program for maybe now eight years or so. At the beginning, we didn't have coaching. We just gave them classes and, you know, experiential educations now. Since, I don't know, maybe four or five years back, we incorporated coaching through, apart from their class, they have two types of coaching, team coaching, and so they sit together as a team and they have coach and individual coaching systems, so they can work out the learnings from the filmmaking, from the rowing, from the navigational challenge. They can take up those learnings with their respective coaches.

Suzan 26:55

That sounds very useful.

Rodrigo 26:58

We are confronting an immense amount of challenges in the world today. Francis Fukuyama, who wrote the end of the History at the end of Last Century. It wasn't. How so? You know, so history in, in, in a way, history just began in the 20th century, 21st century. So, and, and we're full of what we were just talking about, adaptive challenges to confront. And that needs, again, citing people much better than I do. Peter Sega for example, the, another Harvard professor, writer of the fifth discipline, he said, You need. Ways of thinking. It's not just doing, changing a strategy, changing a process, having a new product. No, you need to, as an observer, not only what you are doing, but observe you observing. So maybe there's something in your mindset that needs to change. That is something that is very important for me, and especially with leaders who are. maybe in the fifties, late forties, early sixties, that they think they've done it and, and they've been successful. And so this is the way it should be done. Mm. I'm not sure. There's so much challenges that we're confronting that you need to reassess yourself in the way You are seeing things and how they should be done. That's also something which is, it's related to these personal skills to knowing yourselves.

Suzan 28:17

If you look at your own learning and. Personal and professional development, Are there some habits that you make sure you keep, so that you're constantly also asking yourself how to do things differently or better? And how did the pandemic, for example, affect you after so many decades of having really great insights and teaching people around them?

Rodrigo 28:39

Well, the, the one thing we did in the pandemic in our office. I said, I don't know the answer to this, so let's send it back to the team and we'll proceed. And the one thing that I would think it's very important for the leader is to be open to, to have his or her ears. Wide open, not just hearing for the sake of, Okay, that's fine. You say whatever you say, but then I'll, I'll res No, no, no. Really open minded hearing what many people have to say. I think that's something again, older leaders, women or men who have been success or are more restricted. They think they know the answers. No. No. I think sitting with a 24 year old new leader once a week is very good because it can give you new insights on how to confront this adaptive challenges. Yeah.

Suzan 29:35

If I think through a leader sitting, let's say with 12 team members and, and listening to all of them, and we probably have another podcast just on then decision making and how that happens. But let's say there are a lot of conflicting perspectives that are being presented. Do you have any tips for how to overcome that?

Rodrigo 29:54

Well, the thing is, you That's very good, You're very insightful. The important thing is, Those, the, the, the team knows what the purpose of the whole venture is. So remember, we are trying to climb k2. That's what we're trying to do. The route where we're gonna establish camps, the food we're gonna take, when we're gonna do it, how we're gonna do it, that's open for discussion and. But purpose, which is we want some of us to get to the summit. It's extremely clear. So that puts everybody in line to contribute to that common purpose. It's when you don't have that common purpose, that personal agendas start to, show up. And so people are trying to move into what is convenient for them rather than what is convenient for.

Suzan 30:46

So if you have a leader who is listening and wants to make a big impact on their organization is that even the right goal to have? But what advice would you give to someone who is, is looking to step more into leadership and lead effectively?

Rodrigo 31:01

what I say in Warton is the, we can give you tools, we can give you materials. You can go and intellectualize leadership, and read books, go to seminars, et cetera. What I would suggest is where you're gonna put your heart. The, I have no proof for this, no formal proof, but I strongly believe that when you are leading something that is really meaningful to yourselves, that that involves your heart, your guts. You're gonna lead best. You're not gonna be perfect, but you're gonna lead best or better than if you're leading just for the outcome or for the satisfaction of your shareholders and that kind of stuff. If you really think this is something important to you for your family, for your community, for your city, for your country, for the world go ahead and do it, and you'll be learning from those lessons.

Suzan 31:53

Which is where that self knowledge comes in. Again, knowing who you are, what defines you, what moves you, and choosing where you invest your time and energy from there seems like a good idea.

Rodrigo 32:05

Undoubtedly. It's again, part of, Remember the famous speech by Steve Jobs at Stanford when he says, If you are gonna look at the mirror and, and you said what you're gonna do today, you don't like it, that's, that's fine. No worries. Cause sometimes you have to do things you don't like second day, Okay. But if eight days together on the eight days, you're doing things you don't like, you need to have a formal review of what you're doing. Of what about yourself? Eight days is the rule. Eight days All right. According to Steve Jobs come

Suzan 32:39

Well, it's been an absolute pleasure to have the opportunity to talk with you. I feel really grateful for that experience and, have taken a lot of insight from it. I will end by asking you the question that I ask everyone which is in three words or less, what does leadership mean to.

Rodrigo 32:57

Know yourselves. Put a team together and open your mind to new ideas.

Suzan 33:04

Love it. Well, thank you so much for being here today. Looking forward to sharing this episode and this conversation with the world.

Rodrigo 33:12

Thank you very much, It's been a real pleasure and of course an owner. Thank you very.

33:18

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