ExecU the Podcast
ExecU the Podcast
Ep. 12 Inclusive Leadership, Anne Weisberg, NYU
Join Suzan and NYU's Anne Weisberg as they discuss inclusive leadership, and how we can retain and advance talent inclusively.
January 2023
ExecU Podcast
Episode 12: Inclusive Leadership, Anne Weisberg, NYU
BRIEF SUMMARY OF EPISODE
Anne Weisberg designs strategies that foster high performing, inclusive workplaces that deliver on the “S” in ESG. Her private sector experience has focused on talent strategies with a gender lens.
Most recently, Anne was the Women’s Initiative Director at the law firm Paul, Weiss, where she delivered a 40% increase in the number of women associates and created a Women’s Network that has 90% participation. At BlackRock, Anne created an award-winning women’s leadership program that is the subject of a Harvard Business School case study. She joined BlackRock from Deloitte, where she co-authored Mass Career Customization: Aligning the Workplace to Today’s Nontraditional Workforce (Harvard Business Press, 2007) that coined the phrase “corporate lattice.”
Anne is a recognized thought leader on inclusive workplaces. She was asked to write the New York Times op-ed titled “The Workplace Culture That Flying Nannies Won’t Fix” about workplace culture and as a young mother, she co-authored Everything a Working Mother Needs to Know (Doubleday, 1994).
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KEY TAKEAWAY
Anne: “It's very important when you're doing leadership development programs for specific groups within your organization, that they don't feel like it's remedial, and that it's not perceived as like something is wrong with these people that we need to fix, but rather, we're investing in these people because it's good for our business.”
ADDITIONAL LINKS
Share the podcast: https://execupodcast.buzzsprout.com/share
Anne’s LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/anneweisberg/
Take Anne’s Inclusive Leadership Course on March 27+28, 2023:
https://execed.stern.nyu.edu/products/inclusive-leadership-a-competitive-advantage
Sponsored by Viv Higher Ed:
it's very important when you're doing leadership development programs for specific groups within your organization that they don't feel like it's remedial and that it's not perceived as like something is wrong with these people that we need to fix, but rather. We're investing in these people cuz it's, it's good for our business.
welcome to Executive the podcast, bringing you actionable insights with faculty members from the world's top business schools. I'm your host, Suzanne Brinker. Today I'm excited to share a conversation with Anne Weisberg, who is at NYU Stern School of Management, and she will be talking with us about inclusive leadership.
Suzan:hello Ann. Welcome to Exec the podcast. How are you today?
Anne:I'm great. Thank you so much for having me. We are honored
Suzan:to have. You would love to get started by just hearing about your journey into studying talent strategies with the gender lens and how you ended up at NYU Stern.
Anne:Okay. Well, for me, the personal is professional. I was pregnant my last semester of Harvard Law School, and so I entered the workplace as a new working mom. That experience led me to write my first book which was everything a working mother needs to know, which came out in 1994. And that really changed the course of my career. I had been practicing law up until then, But after that book came out, I realized like there is an opportunity to make workplaces more inclusive. And so I devoted my career to designing workplace strategies that foster inclusive cultures where everyone could thrive. And it's not just because. I wanted those cultures for myself. It's because the research is clear that inclusive cultures are more high performing. They have lower turnover, and they lead to more innovation. And in fact, just one data point from Gartner's HR research that came out at the end of last year, employees that feel that their workplaces are fair. And equitable are 26% more high performing than those who don't and are 27% less likely to quit I, I call that the equity dividend because honestly, those numbers are huge and it doesn't cost that much to get there. It's really more. A mindset shift, a leadership shift. And that's what led me to Stern, to tell you the truth, because in my experience frontline managers were really the key to whether people experience their workplace culture as inclusive or not. And in fact several years ago, McKenzie which does an annual work, women in the workplace report, Coined a new term called the broken Rung to reference or identify this issue that frontline managers really are the key to whether a diverse workforce is advanced in any organization. And unfortunately, frontline managers don't get a lot of training or, skill development around how to do. And so I approached NYU Stern and about eight years ago, and I said, I think this could really make a difference. I think you know, the future business leaders that you're, that you are educating should learn how to do this, should learn how to lead inclusively and Stern was totally on board and I've been teaching there ever.
Suzan:Very, very cool. And I'm assuming in 1994 the book that you published was more unique, in the assertions that it made, but it's still really relevant today, isn't it? We haven't quite arrived at a place where every workplace is inclusive and equitable.
Anne:No, it's a journey for any organization. And. It's aspirational but that doesn't mean it's not achievable.
Suzan:Can you maybe tell a story about an organization you've worked with recently that wanted to become more inclusive and what they changed and what results they saw?
Anne:Having an inclusive culture is both good for your people and good for business. And I wanna share a story about that. It, it's actually goes back to my days leading the women's initiative at Deloitte. When I first got to Deloitte the mission of the Women's Initiative was to drive marketplace growth and create a culture where the best choose to be. And interesting that drive marketplace growth was first. And so, like when I got there, the challenge was how we gonna deliver on that mission And so we began by just surveying the partners who were, majority white men. And ask them, have you sold to a woman in the last two years? And if so, do you think women buy differently from men? And um, it turned out that over 90% of the partners had sold Deloitte services to a woman. And this was over 10 years ago ago. You know, Over 90% of the partners had sold to a woman. The woman had been the buyer of Deloitte services, and everybody said, yes, I do think women buy differently from men, but I'm not sure what that means. So we developed a, a curriculum, a four hour workshop for partners on how to sell to women. And it was mostly for. The male partners because at that time it was about 75% of the partnership. we took about 500 partners through that before I left Deloitte, and they collectively reported 750 million of new business from that. Uh, so, um,
Suzan:that's, do you fell differently to a woman now? I'm curious
Anne:It was very simple things. Part of it was how. you pitched Deloitte services? Honestly the pitch teams had been trained to always try to bring the most senior person to a meeting especially if it was a very big potential client. So they would try to get on the CEO's calendar or somebody like that. And the women clients said, Love meeting the ceo. Really nice guy or gal But unless that person's working on my stuff, I don't really care. I wanna meet the team. They're much more interested in meeting the team and knowing what, what did, what was the team makeup, who was gonna do what, and getting to know the. And so that really changed the way pitches were designed frankly. The other thing was around entertainment and not making any assumptions about what women like or don't like to do. some women play golf. Some women are really good at golf. Some women hate golf. You just have to ask and then the third thing was really around. Being very mindful that you're not making assumptions about a woman's purchasing power. Women are hypersensitive to being discounted because it happens to them all the
Suzan:time. Right? Absolutely. It's almost like anticipated.
Anne:I mean, there's research that shows that even very senior women are routinely mistaken for being more junior women. So it's happening to them all the time, so they're kind of hypersensitive to it. So don't make that mistake because they'll remember that. Mm-hmm. And they'll also remember. The opposite that you engaged with them and you were aware of the gender dynamics of leadership and even telling potential women clients that you've been through this workshop would impress them. You know that you
Suzan:making an effort. I mean, even just saying like, I'm trying to be thoughtful and not make assumptions about what everybody likes to do, so I'm not just gonna suppose that we're gonna go play golf later necessarily like golf, in which case we could do that some. I mean, just being really transparent can be disarming in some ways. Yes. Right,
Anne:right. It's a way to build relationships, so, oh,
Suzan:that's so interesting. You also created an award-winning women's leadership program at BlackRock that is actually part of a Harvard case study. What are the key success factors there and what impact did it have on the business? Was it a similar story to what you just shared about Deloitte or was it different?
Anne:It was a, a little bit different, but but similar in that, all of this has to. Tied to both individual advancement and institutional advancement, right? So it has to be good for both the people involved, like the women and or the, partners pitching business and for the business. So roughly 10 years ago, when BlackRock decided to make a big commitment to leadership development and to diversity, equity and inclusion. So those two things were happening at the same time, and I think one of the key success factors is that BlackRocks a highest governing body, the global executive committee. Has always had a human capital committee that reports into the Global Executive committee and I, I really think that's a best practice and every company should do that. So the Human Capital Committee was the committee that was responsible for the talent strategy of the firm. And that signal, that talent is a strategy you know? Yeah. Yeah. Um, that you're not just like winging it. Every business leader says Our people are our biggest asset, but are you really set up to deliver on that? And
Suzan:there's a difference right between, I just interviewed also Enes Black from Duke Fuqua School of Business, and she focuses on hiring strategy. But then there's also a strategy around retaining your talent and advancing your talent in equitable ways.
Anne:Exactly, and, building a, a diverse leadership bench. So all of that was under the the stewardship of the human capital Committee, which by the way was A very sought after committee to be on. Like all the cool people were on that committee, So, I think that was one success factor, honestly. And the fact that the women's leadership development program was part of a whole suite of leadership development programs. So it wasn't an isolated thing. It wasn't singling out the women, it's very important when you're doing leadership development programs for specific groups within your organization that they don't feel like it's remedial and that it's not perceived as like something is wrong with these people that we need to fix, but rather. We're investing in these people cuz it's, it's good for our business.
Suzan:It's not charity. It's absolutely a win-win. It's
Anne:business Yeah, exactly. And I think the third, success factor was that it was a year long program. And, I think more and more companies are doing that, but. 10 years ago, that was pretty unusual. and that was because, changing mindsets even among the women around all of this, takes time. It's not a one shot one and done, like, okay, couple hours and then you're done. It, it involves, really understanding and redefining people's leadership identity.
executive. The podcast is sponsored by ViiV Higher Education, a full service marketing agency and enrollment strategy consulting firm for colleges and universities. ViiV is passionate about executive education and lifelong learning. Today's episode is brought to you by NYU Stern Executive Education. On March 27th and 28th, 2023, Anne Weisberg will be teaching a course called Inclusive Leadership, a Competitive Advantage. You can learn more about this course and how to sign up on the NYU Stern Executive Education.
Suzan:I mean, internalized oppression is a term that comes to mind. Right, exactly. I mean,
Anne:to a woman. So, I did one on one orientation with every woman in the program because these were very senior women, so they were managing directors and director. and to a woman, they were like, why am I in this program? Like, why are we having this? Like, I'm telling no one
Suzan:I don't wanna be seen as a woman in the workplace. I don't have that at all. Right?
Anne:I have my entire career, Trying to fit in. and then, you know, by the end they were like, oh, I see. I get it now. Leadership was also so
Suzan:tough because once you start talking about some of the stories that we probably all could tell about what it means to be a woman in the workforce, you can easily be labeled as, victimizing yourself or as to too angry, so striking, whatever, you know, the right balance of how to discuss these problematic. Trends that we've experienced would be tricky. But that's why programs like that can help. Right? They can help us talk about it in a way that actually aligns people
Anne:exactly. And I think that was really what came out of that program. The impact on the business was really twofold. One was on the women themselves two thirds of them were in bigger jobs after that program. Wow. At the end of the year. So, so the business, really benefited from these tremendous women leaders. And that not only benefited the women in the program, but also women coming up and, because they could see more and more role models for themselves. And frankly, since that time, which was, as I said, over 10 years ago black Park has, rolled out a whole suite of leadership development programs. So, because that program was so successful, it led to many other kinds of investments. So it was good for the people involved, but it was also good for the culture of the firm. More and more senior leaders grew in their capacity for inclusive leader. And those were the, people, the managers and senior leaders involved in the program because every woman had a sponsor who was on the global executive committee, but also their managers. Right. The people they reported to, and the other people they manage. So there was a real ripple effect in the culture.
executive. The podcast is sponsored by ViiV Higher Education, a full service marketing agency and enrollment strategy consulting firm for colleges and universities. ViiV is passionate about executive education and lifelong learning. Today's episode is brought to you by NYU Stern Executive Education
Suzan:You also wrote a book called Mass Career Customization, aligning the Workplace to Today's Non-Traditional Workforce. When did that come out?
Anne:Well, that came out in 2007. I co-wrote it with, my boss at Deloitte. Kathy Benko.
Suzan:Okay, so 2007 you wrote that and in it you coined the phrase corporate lattice as sort of a new model of career progression. So the book came out 15 years ago. Do you think that it is still relevant? Yes,
Anne:I mean, uh, it's funny cause I went back and looked, at the trends that we, uh, predicted would really make a difference in the way the workforce thinks about work. And this was, as you said, 15 years ago, we identified six trends and they're just as relevant today. Wow. Got it. So, you know, the shrinking pool of skilled labor. and we, you know, we've seen that especially with the pandemic. retirements of the baby boomers has like doubled in the last year. The increasing number of women, Today, women are the majority of the skilled or educated workforce in the US and really around the world. changing expectations of men, and there was just a report in the Times, about how more and more men, like 2 million men in the US are now stay at home. Dads. Changing family structures, which is, a result of all these other changes and generational changes and technology changes, right? So those were the six trends and we said like, these are really affecting the way, talent thinks about work. And as organizations, you need to come up with a response to that. Our response was to say, you can't have a rigid, linear, hierarchical corporate structure like that doesn't work for people's lives. there's so many transaction costs for both the individual and the organization, in maintaining that kind of model of the corporate ladder, if you go to a more flexible fluid, corporate lattice model that's more agile there'll be so many gains for both the individual and the organization. And to do that, we created this framework called Mass Career Customization that says that any career can be deconstructed in into four core dimensions Progress. Or pace, which is the rate of career progression, workload, which is the amount of work you do, location, schedule, which is where and when you work and role, which is the set of responsibilities you have. And every organization should be able to articulate options for their people along. Four dimensions and explain the trade offs for choices made across those dimensions and you know, if you think about that, just the location schedule dimension. 15 years ago, Deloitte again was very ahead of its time. It was pretty much our virtual firm back then. But today everybody knows, right? Every organization knows. It can work. Flexibility in terms of location, schedule, like
Suzan:where and when you work. Yeah. I mean it was like the mass experiment forced upon upon all of us by the pandemic, and the results were so clear. People are happier and more productive. Right. Which I think. It's shocking to some managers to this day who are still looking to, to maybe put some arbitrary boundaries in place.
Anne:But my point is, is that okay, we've had this mass experiment, as you call it, that has proven that, the flexibility around location schedule works and. Organizations are struggling to figure out what do I do with that And a lot of business leaders are like, well, let's just go back to the way it was. And that cannot be the
Suzan:solution. Yeah. There's also something called the free market. You know, the talent is now going to the jobs where they have that flexibility because they've tasted the benefits of it. So it's just also not a good business decision.
Anne:So the, so the bunk really gives. Business leaders, a framework. We're thinking about how do you redesign these systems so that they work for both individuals and the
Suzan:business well, what blew my mind a little bit about what you said about those four pillars, is that not only are you saying these exist and corporations need to decide sort of where they fall or where their talent needs to be to achieve certain amount of career progression, but you're saying, Corporations should outline options for all four areas and articulate sort of the benefits and downsides around those options. Right. And I think that's really genius and it seems like a lot of intent needs to be put in it and a lot of conversation needs to be had, to make that really clear and easy to understand for the people who work for you.
Anne:Yes. I mean, I'm not saying it's easy. But I am saying that if you are more intentional about all of this, which goes back to our, the start of our conversation, that talent strategies matter. That you have to think of your talent as something that you manage strategically just like every other part of your business. That you'll see tremendous payoff. Like it's not easy, but it's definitely worth it. And it doesn't cost anything. I mean, this is the thing, you know, a lot of, change and transformation is really expensive. This is about setting different expectations. Of everyone, but especially of your managers and giving them both the tools, the skills, and also the time, to manage differently. But in the end, I mean, as, as we said, like there are tremendous dividends for all of this in terms of higher engagement, higher productivity, lower turnover. Higher retention.
Suzan:Yeah. The research is clear, even though it might be counterintuitive to some, and that might be the reason that we're not seeing complete adoption of flexibility in the workplace now, because even though it's been proven out by these two years, it still seems counterintuitive that the less you control people, the better the results will be
Anne:right? Because guess what? You know, command and control, I mean, Last night, in, our inclusive leadership class, I did a poll on what was the, number one characteristic of, inclusive leadership. And my students, the majority of them, said empathy. Yeah. It wasn't, it wasn't confidence, it wasn't vision, it wasn't any of that. It was empathy. Yeah. Wow. So we, we are in a paradigm shift around what leadership looks like. It across the world. I think in, in both the public sector and the private sector.
Suzan:It's exciting actually. So we're imagining our listeners as people who are in leadership positions, you know, mid-level to senior level, people who want to lead, lean into leadership. And I think a lot of them are listening to this podcast looking to get insights that they can kind of adopt, you know, and they're working lives and. In terms of what advice you would give, what would you say to someone, you know, a woman or another minority in the workplace today? And then, um, to flip that on its head, what advice would you give leaders and managers looking to create inclusive cultures as well?
Anne:Yeah, I, I think for any, underrepresented group, my advice is pretty simple. You have to think of the meritocracy as about results and relationships. Nobody succeeds alone, and as my mentor, charter Sheu, who's a retired partner from EY and now sits on, several public company boards, You only succeed if others want you to succeed, and you have to invest in relationships, and you have to be strategic about doing that. And women and people of color are because it, it is harder for them. There's no question. It's harder for them to build, powerful relationships with powerful people inside organizations. You have to see it as part of your job. So that's the first thing And then, for managers and leaders, my message is pretty simple. Inclusive leadership is a choice. you have to make that choice. And, and then you have to be very intentional about what it means every day. and you'll get better at it. It's not like it's gonna be hard forever, but it is a choice. and you have to decide that this is the way you wanna be thought of as a. And this is the way you're gonna get results because I can, guarantee you your results will follow once you decide that this is how you wanna lead. But you know that that's why we offer these courses so that we can help leaders and managers figure out what that means for them.
Suzan:Does it also, I mean, you, you were talking about how the meritocracy is a combination now in the knowledge economy, right? Of relationships and results. And so if I'm a manager, looking to be more inclusive, I can understand how I can give people flexibility and try to be empathetic about the challenges that might, require them to have a non-conforming schedule or whatever it is. But what can I do to. Them create better relationships too, Have you seen somebody do that really well? Cause it seems like relationships are so ambiguous, you know, it's just intuitive and messy, and how do you get in front of the right people? It, it just seems overwhelming. Oh, I think that's
Anne:the, this again, it's like doesn't cost anything. It's one of the most impactful things a manager can do, which is to introduce their people to other people. Who have influence and clout within the organization or outside the organization. If you're a client service, uh, business, you know, introduce, especially your women and people of color to influential people who can make a difference in their careers. Ask them, who do you wanna? Give them visibility opportunities, if you get invited to speak on a panel, suggest somebody diverse from your team instead.
Suzan:Yeah. That's an easy, I mean, that's, I shouldn't say that's an easy one, but that's a good one, right? That
Anne:take much. It doesn't take much, but it does take making that intentional choice to expand, and invest in your people in a different way.
Suzan:It also means that to some extent you have to not always be obsessed with your own advancement, but rather think about what your team needs to get ahead to. And I
Anne:can tell you, because I, I've seen this, that leaders who lead this way, everybody wants to work with them. So they end up with the best talent on their teams. And everybody knows like, if you have the best talent, you win So, you're not giving anything up. You'll gain more than you give up, I promise you.
Suzan:I love it makes me think of a time when I was more entry level, at Penn State, and our VP got an invitation to go to this conference with these incredibly famous speakers. I mean, Hillary Clinton was there, Forza, Kaia, Thomas Friedman, I don't even remember all of them. Wow. And he sent me an email and he said, do you wanna go? And I was like, yes. you know, and I. Played and I felt really excited and, and he didn't need to do that. And I can't say that anything big came out of it for my career other than so many ideas and, some confidence that I could go to events like this and, um, exactly. You know, that was Craig Whiteman, who was the vice president for, online and outreach at Penn State, and he was one of those leaders who was really always thinking about how can you take the people on his team with. You know, helping advance other people instead of himself. So that resonates
Anne:very strong. And didn't you then, didn't you
Suzan:love working for him? I absolutely did. Yeah. And he was so curious. It was so much fun to meet with him and, yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I have, I think
Anne:curiosity is, um, yeah. Is, is a, is a key inclusive leadership.
Suzan:curiosity and then the empathy that makes, I mean, they probably go hand in hand to some extent. Right. what problem or research challenge is still keeping you up at night? We're recording this in November of 2022. We've had this mass experiment with c o We know it didn't change everybody's minds, but it changed a few a lot. You know what, what is next for you as you're looking at what you're researching, what you're teaching?
Anne:Well, what keeps me up at night is, the role of business society broadly defined and specifically kind of articulated through esg, and especially for me, the s what do we mean by the S and esg? The social, what does that mean? How do we measure it? What does that mean, both in terms of how organizations, manage and treat their people. So that's the internal part of the s and also how organizations, fit into and think about the communities in which they operate. So there's an internal and external component to the s and I think the S is kind of a really muddy, messy. Middle, it's like the middle letter. It's kind of the middle child of this whole conversation, and we are still trying to all figure out like, what does it mean? So, and how can we best deliver on the s. Interesting.
Suzan:When you think about the executive learning environment at NYU Stern, say somebody's listening to this right now, it's like, I would really like to explore what's there for me at NYU Stern, and if I can use some of the courses, offerings, programs to advance myself. What do you think makes it unique?
Anne:Well, in my experience, stern has. This longstanding commitment to these questions like what is the role of business in society? How do we create stronger, businesses that are also. Contributing positively to society. So I think, it has a longstanding commitment to that. But in terms of exec ed, in particular, what I find unique about Stern is the reach, it can cast such a wide net. So I've had in my courses, people who are, are managing partners at major law firms and also executive directors of regional arts organizations, and, bringing those people together creates a tremendous learning environment. I have found that to be, one of the most valuable aspects of, NYU Stern's exec ed programs, at least from my perspective, and I think from the students too, frankly.
Suzan:Is there a specific course that somebody could just enroll in that you would want people to know about? Like, for example, your inclusive leadership course, is that one that people can take or is it it's just part of the mba. You have to be admitted in
Anne:Oh, no, no, no, no, no. It's part of exec ed and I think, of course there's my course, but I, I would encourage, your listeners to, look at all the range of courses that, stern Exec Ed offers. I mean, Constantly updating and adding new courses. I think the best thing is for people to go on this a Stern Exec ed website and just look at the
Suzan:options. There are many, many options. Yeah. Yes, yes.
Anne:And there, there are many different kinds of, Programs, for executives, so mm-hmm.
Suzan:and online and in person. Live online versus asynchronous. You have it all right? You have
Anne:it all and, and different ways of scheduling. so you can take courses that are all just in a couple of days or courses that last, six months or whatever. I mean, it's really, there's so many options for you. It's, they've designed it. Everybody should be able to find something that works for them.
Suzan:I also love when I think about the executive education market, I just saw a statistic that sort of the top universities in the United States have a 51% market share, which means that if you come to a school like NYU Stern and you end up interacting with people from all over the world who are coming to the best of the best for executive education.
Anne:Totally. I mean, Literally people from all over the world. That's exactly right.
Suzan:So you teach this course on inclusive leadership. I'm gonna end with the question that I ask everyone at the end, which is, in a nutshell, what does leadership mean to you?
Anne:Leadership means making a choice to create fair, equitable workplace cultures every. And having the skills and tools to deliver on that.
Suzan:It's not just a position that you're in, it's a choice that you make. Can I make that choice if I'm not technically a leader on the org chart
Anne:just yet? Absolutely. We tell our students, you have agency at every. You can totally change somebody else's life and career trajectory at any level in the organization.
Suzan:Thank you so much for your insights, for your time. It was an absolute pleasure and honor to have you and I can't wait to share this episode with
Anne:the world. Thank you. It was so fun to talk to.
Thank you for listening to Exec You, the podcast sponsored by ViiV Higher Education. We hope you learn something that will help you grow as a leader. Please don't forget to share this episode with your network and subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss future episodes. On March 27th and 28th, 2023, Anne Weisberg will be teaching a course called Inclusive Leadership, a Competitive Advantage. You can learn more about this course and how to sign up on the NYU Stern Executive Education.
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