Ep. 8 Tough Love in the Boardroom, Bill Klepper, Columbia

Join Suzan and Columbia's Bill Klepper as they discuss how the partnership of strong teams & boards can impact even the most vulnerable CEOs.


January 2023
ExecU Podcast
Episode 8:  Tough Love in the Boardroom with Bill Klepper, Columbia

BRIEF SUMMARY OF EPISODE

Bill Klepper is an experienced executive with over forty years of leadership in higher education. He is currently a member of the Columbia Business School faculty within the Management Division. He teaches the Executive MBA course on Executive Leadership and is a regular guest professor in the MBA course on High Performance Leadership. He also serves as Academic Director of Executive Education and teaches globally within a number of corporate custom programs, focusing on Executive Learning, Strategic Leadership, Corporate Governance, High Performance Cultures and the Creation and Implementation of Strategy.

Bill is the author of The CEO's Boss: Tough Love in the Boardroom.

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KEY TAKEAWAY

 “I think even when I get up close and personal in talking with CEOs, there's in many ways a belief that they are  all knowledgeable, all powerful, right? And therefore can manage all things. What I found out the closer I get to them is no, they feel just as vulnerable as the next leader, and in many cases, the expectations of them, are beyond their own capabilities. The side difference is who they surround themselves with. So, I'm a firm believer that we can focus on the CEO, but what we really want to learn more about is the team of the CEO, because it's in the team.”

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Bill’s LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-klepper-39b3a2/

Bill’s Book:

https://www.amazon.com/CEOs-Boss-Boardroom-Columbia-Publishing/dp/0231149883

Sponsored by Viv Higher Ed: 

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Transcript

Bill 0:00

from a distance and I think even when I get up close and personal in talking with CEOs, there's in many ways a belief that they are all knowledgeable, all powerful, right? And therefore uh, can manage all things. What I found out the closer I get to them is no, they feel just as vulnerable as the next leader. And in many cases, the expectations of them are beyond their own capabilities. But. The side difference is who they surround themselves with. I'm a firm believer that we can focus on the c e O, but what we really want to learn more about is the team of the C E O,

0:38

welcome to Executive the podcast, bringing you actionable insights from faculty at the world's top business schools. I'm your host, Suzanne Brinker, and today I'm sharing a conversation with Bill K Clipper, who's at Columbia Business School, and we're talking about his book, the CEO's Boss, tough Love in the Boardroom.

Suzan 0:55

hi Bill. It's so great to have you on the show.

Bill 0:58

Hello, Suzanne. Good to see you and to hear your voice.

Suzan 1:02

It's exciting to have, a faculty member from Columbia Business School on the podcast. I know you have extensive experience in business leadership and education. And so before we get into the book that you wrote and the insights that you're gonna share with us today, could you give us an overview of your journey to date and to your position at Columbia?

Bill 1:23

Sure. I was 30 years in general management in higher education, meaning that I held various administrative positions, but always taught part-time. My last position was I was an executive officer at the College of New Jersey. I was a vice president there. And during that last 10 years of that 25 year tenure at the College of New Jersey, I took a sabbatical. To teach full-time at Columbia to see if that might be what I'd like to do as my next, career move. Make a long story short, I'm now in my 26th year of full-time teaching at Columbia Business School.

Suzan 2:01

Love it. Thank you so much. Now you wrote a. Called the CEO's boss, tough Love in the boardroom. And that book first came out in 2010, and then you published a second edition in 2019. What inspired you to release a second edition? In other words, what changed between 2010 and 2019 that inspired you to do that?

Bill 2:22

The the answer is that those of us who are professors at business schools at least in the group that I'm in we write case studies. And so between 2010 and 2019, I was studying various, companies, Relative to their governance. And so I had a series of case studies that were written, those case studies included. And these are, by the way, in the news, so you would know about them. Most recent one, is Wells Fargo. You know about the Wells Fargo crises with regard to I guess you might say they're unethical behaviors, BP and their explosion in the golf Hewlett Packard in terms of their, breakup and creation of a number of companies Procter and Gamble in terms of their c e o issues. So I would write these case studies. All right. And after about, oh, I'd say about eight years of that Columbia University Press and Columbia Business School Publishing said, bill, you seem to have enough writing here that you should be doing an update of your. So I did that. I did an update, included the case studies. There are others in there. Beyond that, there's some non-for-profit case studies in there, case studies about the Wounded Warrior project that I wrote a couple case studies about. But by and large, that's what we do. We we never satisfied. We're always, going on to the next thought, that we're obsessed with. And so I would look at companies, I'd measure it against my original writings, and then I would develop a case and of course I teach it my classroom.

Suzan 3:57

I'm just so curious because you're one of several, business schools professors that I'm interviewing for this podcast and this case study writing process. How does it work exactly? Do you interview leaders at those companies? How do you get your data and your.

Bill 4:13

It can go one way or the other, one that is not in this current book, but that I just completed, was to interview a c e o founding you c e o of a company called Exec Online, which basically brought us at ex exec ed at Columbia Business School into what I would call the 21st century by joining in a partnership to offer online courses during covid. And actually the the beginnings of it started with Gavin Steven Bailey. So this case study includes an interview of him and his journey. It's a 10 year journey and his development of Exxon online Columbia was part of the beginnings of it with Berkeley. And he just, Received, by the way, the award from Ernst and Young as entrepreneur of the year in the New York area. So he's very successful. So I like to, use people like that as protagonist, present to students where they started, what their journey was, how they ended up where they are, and then of course the case of Exec online and Stephen Bailey, it's a very good story. He's also a black man and that makes for a good I guess you might say contrast and perspective for a diverse student population, which we at Columbia have.

Suzan 5:28

Do you typically choose people who are very successful or have you also done case studies on people who have, to just use the word failed with always? Oh, sure, sure. Intended and unintended connotations. Yeah.

Bill 5:39

they're the ones that don't wanna talk to you, That's the answer. So you have to use what's in the public domain. One of the first mini case studies I wrote, which is in the book as well, was about Lehman brother. And of course, I don't know if Suzanne, you get to Broadway at all, but the Lehman Brother Trilogy, three acts of it tells that story of where they started when they were immigrants and came over, and of course where they collapsed in the third act. But I talk about the third act, that's where I pick it up. And I talk about Richard Fold, who was the c e O of Lehman Brothers. And he basically failed as a c e O and leader. And I point out where I think he failed and where I think his board failed him. And so you find that In many cases, the case studies were right. They're right out of what I call the headlines the kind of stuff. If you picked up the Financial Times, the Economist, the Wall Street Journal they'd be there right in front of you. So then the story is, why did that happen? And that's what academics always do, have to answer the question why. And so when I write my cases or, and ultimately include'em in my book, I put probably put'em in that context of why is this happening? And then of course, offer suggestions the way they could have done it differently.

Suzan 6:49

It sounds like a really fun gig actually, now that I know how it works more. Yeah. And good to, to stay curious, I'm sure about the stories that you only see headlines about at first, and then you get to unpack with more information and data. Exactly. So speaking of your book the CEO's boss, Huff Love in the Boardroom, what would you say is the general view of A C E O today in America?

Bill 7:13

That's a good question. I, from a distance and I think even when I get up close and personal in talking with CEOs, there's in many ways a belief that they are all knowledgeable, all powerful, right? And therefore uh, can manage all things. What I found out the closer I get to them is no, they feel just as vulnerable as the next leader. And in many cases, the expectations of them are beyond their own capabilities. But. The side difference is who they surround themselves with. I'm a firm believer that we can focus on the c e O, but what we really want to learn more about is the team of the C E O, because it's in the team. You Whether or not you have the full capacity to lead an organization. And I think boards more and more are tuned into the team, not just the c e O, but the answer is that general public kind of think they're in total control and they know it all. Now if I would ask you this, you feel that you know it all, that you can control it all. You and I would both say, nah, I don't think so. And I think that's the way they feel when they go home at night and they're thinking about it that they're vulnerable in that regard. That's why you surround yourself with a strong team and a strong board. Because that partnership, and that's the theme of my book that the CEO's boss, the board, right? And with a heavy dose of tough love let's call it mentoring coaching, right? Can shore up, I think a vulnerable c e o and make them a high performer. Do

Suzan 8:49

you think that most people in America understand the role of a board? I think the ceo e o is always the visible Yeah, that's right. Had and how can we help in a nutshell define, what is the role of a board of directors

Bill 9:00

to Yes. Suzanne, it's interesting. That's a very good question cuz I got it yesterday from the writer of the business section of the New York Times and he said, let's go back. Let's go back and just refresh my memory Bill. know it sounds basic, but tell me what you know this board is and what it's supposed to do now. He knew it, but I said, okay, here's a quick er. First of all, we're talking about governance, right? We're talking about governance, and we're talking about publicly traded companies, meaning that people have their treasure invested, they're called shareholders in these companies, and they've elected board directors to be, these are independent board directors. They've elected to basically serve as a fiduciary, right? To provide oversight for not just leadership, but the company as a whole. How's it breakdown? There are three things that boards do and this is in their fiduciary role. One is they have a duty of loyalty, right? Duty of loyalty basically means that, look, when they sit on the board, it's not their own interest. They're concerned about their interest of all the shareholders. And by the way, if things like insider trading is what gets you. In trouble legally. And when you violate the duty of loyalty. Second one is duty of care. Duty of care says, I care enough about this business to keep it prosperous, right? To keep it successful. And I'm gonna make the best decisions I can make with regard to that. And if for any reason along the line, I am not fulfilling that duty, right? I shouldn't be on the board. So in other words, if I get lazy or I say, I really don't care what the business does, something like that. Duty of loyalty, duty of care. If they violate any of those two things, by the way, there are legal complications and consequences can resolve from'em. That's why a lot of people don't wanna be on boards, cuz they can be personally. Now there's insurance that covers them, but they're still, in, I guess you might say the circle of possible uh, liabilities. The third one is business judgment. Okay. And judgment is just that, right? You make a judgment. It doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna be right or wrong, but it's assumed that a board member will provide good business judgment in conjunction with the executives who are leading the organization. That one, by the way, they could get wrong because that's just the nature of business. It's messy and you can't get it a hundred percent correct. But the ones that they need to go down to is duty of loyalty, duty of care, and good business judgment. And those are fiduciary responsibility abilities, and those are held by the directors collectively of the board. So that's the quick primer on it. Now, I would step back from it and say okay, that's good to know, bill, but what's, what about the c e o? In many cases, the c e O is a member of the board. In fact, the CEO e is sat as chair of the board. And so you've got this interesting kind of mix that as a board member, the c e O has the same fiduciary responsibilities as a board member. And if they're chair, they even have greater, what I would call leverage with regard to the decision making of that board. So then we can end the debate of should A C E O or should a be a chair or not a chair. But anyway, to your question, which is a good one, Suzanne and the New York Times asked it's their fiduciary responsibilities to the shareholders. That's why they're there. They're elected by them. Publicly held companies now traded companies and they're to watch their money, what they contributed, what they bought what they invested

Suzan 12:41

Got it. I'm glad to be in the company of the New York Times and the questions that I ask like with your book title, a lot of these terms, c e o board, sure of love, they're second nature to us. But I still wanna hear your definition, exactly. How do you think a c e O is perceived? You answered that. What is the role of a board? You answered that, and then this idea of tough love. So what's your definition of tough

Bill 13:03

love? Yeah, I, of course, I, it's a subtitle and what I was trying to signal and I hope that, you know, everybody asks the question cuz they like the subtitle more than the title of the book. CEO's Boss. Okay, I think I get that the CEO o is hired and fired by the board. The board is the CEO's boss. What's this tough love stuff? You probably know I have a definition of it. Tough love is an expression used when someone treats another person sternly with the intent to help them in the long run. With the intent. This means to help them. That's right. To help them. So the idea is that a board's relationship with the CEO should be one of eyeball to eyeball honesty, providing feedback with the idea that they can be successful in their role as the chief executive officer. Now, let's see if I could give you another example of, and now Suzanne, I'm sure that you, when you were growing up, once in a while, you probably challenged your parents by virtue of the behavior that you exhibited, right? And then there was that loving parent that called you over and said, now sit down here and. Think about what you did and why you did it, and then let's have a discussion about what you would do differently. All right, so you sat there for a while, right? And then finally you had that discussion. Now it wasn't a discussion or an experience probably that you would've welcomed, but you look back on it and say, I learned a very important lesson. And again, what these board members are doing, and they're providing tough love to the c e o, we don't exactly put'em in a corner, but we do put'em in their place. If we're doing an effective job as a I guess you might say a board independent director, you put'em in their place in the sense that, let me explain to you what we're seeing here. Let me understand why it is the case that it is and what it is that you know you would do differently if you could. And then there's an open discussion, think about a board member in the healthiest relationship with their c e o as a guide by the side. All right? In other words you populate your board based on the individual board members' experience, expertise, and knowledge as well as perspective. Okay. By the way, we're an, I say perspective, that's my way of looking at diversity with regard to gender, race, ethnicity, et cetera. But you definitely want to have people on there. Let's say that you're dealing with a company that is technology driven. Be very smart to have board members have technology as experience, expertise and knowledge, right? So you bring those kind of things to your board. Now, these people are expert in their own way, and they're providing that kind of what I would call mentoring of their c e O. So they have credibility. As a voice for the c e o to listen to Tough Love is giving that voice to be heard by the c e o and doing it in such a way that's not judgmental. It's an assessment. Here's what I see, here's what I believe we're trying to do. Can you, you know, reconcile the two of those for me? What's you thinking on that? That's a long-winded answer for a good question. But that's tough love. Tough love is call. Think about it as feedback. Stir and be

Suzan 16:24

looking out for someone's future

Bill 16:26

success. Yeah. But think his feedback is a gift. All right. In other words, here's another way of saying it. Would you rather have people talking to you or talking about you? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There's nothing you can learn from people talking about you, but if they're talking to you, there's a good chance you could learn something and do something better as a result. That's at the, that's at the core of Tough

Suzan 16:50

Love. I love that sentiment. Do you think that most CEOs are open to tough love? Is that something you've seen across your case studies? I think

Bill 16:58

when they're interviewing the job, they are Yeah. There's no question in my mind there's that. I think what sometimes occurs is the c e o particularly at points of what I would call success. I have a tendency, by the way, this is not Bill's research. There's a lot of researchers out there that talk about this, is there can be dealt of what we call hubris. And hubris is a kind of an arrogance that I really know more than you do. And now that I'm the chair of this board, you know, just follow what I want to do. That kind. Arrogance. So hubris, by the way, hubris is the first sign before the fall from all that we know. There was a guy by the name of Wartell who was the c e o then became chairman of the board. And he just was doing everything right. He and I, Wartell and I went to the Outstanding Directors Exchange discussion in New York City and he told a story. It was a living case study. Circuit City started as a, what we used to call an appliance store in Richmond, Virginia. It's called Wards. And they got to name wards because they took. The name of the family Word Soul. And then what they did is they took the first name of each of the children. And so the idea of Wards is a right. And of course, that's the individual we're talking about was first he went out to law school, he didn't wanna work in the company is Dad brought him in. He became a great success. Anyway, they became a very successful company until technology in the areas which they were selling became what I call more routine more of a commodity. There was a time when, if you wanted a. Computer. You went to a place like Circuit City and they had advisors there would explain everything to you. And anyway, make a long story short, they did very well. But then another group, when it became more of a commodity, you could order things, that you knew you wanted. And they were self-driven. You could run your own computer from your pc with a pc. There was a company that came in behind them. Do you remember who it was? It's a company called Best Buy. Circuit City, was then taken over by Best Buy because they started to sell'em price versus value. And so they undercut'em on price. And so when you went in to Best Buy, you didn't ask for advice, you just asked for a machine cuz you knew what you wanted and they went, undercut the price. So that's the story of a case study with a leader, by the way, that for the most part started off strong but then failed because of the situations around him. Wasn't his fault that the, things matured in such a way, just missed the curve by the way, and then back to Good to Great, that company was listed as the greatest of the great in their industry. And then of course the second book comes out on why the Manny fail. And then they point out that sometimes, shift happens. That's spelled s h i f t shift happens right?

19:59

executive. The podcast is sponsored by ViiV Higher Education, a full service marketing agency and enrollment strategy consulting firm for colleges and universities. ViiV is passionate about executive education and lifelong learning. Today's episode is brought to you in collaboration with Columbia Business.

Suzan 20:18

What do CEOs who exhibit that hubris and maybe cannot handle tough love? Yeah. Miss out on,

Bill 20:27

I think it, it starts out with, having success, right? In other words, you start to believe your own pr, right? That they're writing about you over in marketing about a great co you are, and what a great success this company is, how it's going to, continue to be great and so by our stock, that kind of thing. And so I think it starts by reading your own press or believing you know, that you're invulnerable. And then of course, I think in many ways is not looking or accepting of contradictory data CEOs that adjust to the normal, what I call life cycle their business. Meaning there are gonna be inflection points are those that are always assuming they're at the point of inflection. Even when they're at their peak performance, they assume, look what goes up. Coming down. And so when I present, and you probably know this from having seen my book, I create an S-curve for executive leadership. And I tell people, look, here are the kind of what I would call agenda leadership practices and behavior that you need to apply as a leader, but based on what your organization needs. And what typically happens is on the rise of success, CEOs can believe it'll never end, right? So there's a certain degree of arrogance Huber sets in and they don't make the kind of what I'd call change that is required because all organizations should always think they're at the point of inflection should, they should be thinking about how they're gonna start the new wave of performance for their organization, not trying to ride out the existing wave. That's the concept. And the model that I offer for leaders and to answer your question more specifically, I think it's just simply why do you wanna think bad things when things are going so good? Come on. It's a downer. And they don't, they develop Yeah.

Suzan 22:23

Perhaps being, you can be, you can anticipate that things will go down without making it a very negative emotion all the time. You can be excited about the challenge at the That's right. Same time as anticipating that change.

Bill 22:36

Think about good partnerships you have. It might be in your personal life, it might be in your business life, it might be whatever. Usually what you find is in partnerships you have strengths and you have what I call complimentary, right? Capabilities. And I always say, look, good. Partnerships are one where the other's trying to get the other to be as successful as they possibly can. If I could say to you, okay, look, I think this one, let me take the lead. Let me take the lead on this. You keep an eye on me. And at the point where we move towards more of a, what I'd call questioning of how we're doing, how about you move up? and take over that role and I'll, continue to be the ultimate optimist, But we do need, I think at the same time, somebody that scrutinizes challenges what it is we're doing. So why don't we work in a partnership in that regard? Now, I'm not giving you that role, knowing you that could do that or want to do that, but the point is that's knowing me. because I am the one of those dreamers. I've always tried to partner with a strong analytical thinker, right? Someone that can check my ideas for their viability. And I think that's what boards can provide. And should look to that. Okay. What is not just the strength of the leader, but what is the vulnerability of the leader and how can we encourage the strength and support the less than strength?

Suzan 24:06

Weakness? Sounds like there's a good amount to needed of just mutual awareness and knowledge of each other. Yes. I'm assuming boards function better when they actually know each other and the

Bill 24:16

ceo. Yeah. Yeah. There's no question. I think savvy CEOs know that, and by the way, they, they know also that they're their boss. So it's like everybody else who has a boss, they're, they be smarted to get to know'em. So I think aside from just the board meetings the c e o who keeps their board members constantly in the communication loop of what's going on in the company, what's going on, With them is in a better position to receive the kind of support they need. So I think it's just good advice. And I spend the eighth chapter in my book talking about the dynamics, behavioral dynamics of this team of board, c e o. And I get in I get into behavioral styles. I get in ways that they can I guess better be responsive to one another and build a team. Yeah, there's no question that I can't imagine any c e o that doesn't just instinctively know that they better know what their board members are thinking and feeling about how they're doing.

Suzan 25:24

Yeah. I'm curious if you have done any work on also trying to increase the diversity on boards, because Yeah, I think we all have that cliche of the old boys club Sure. In our minds, either because of personal experiences or just because of media. I'm assuming it gets quite a bit more complicated to have robust personal relationships when the diversity on boards goes up, although I'm assuming that's also very helpful to have and the right thing to do. So do you have a perspective on that at all?

Bill 25:55

I do. I have a tagline, the tagline goes something like this, diversity is a strength that enriches us all. So let's start with that understanding Now, where's that come from? And of course, you've heard me say before, all right I want my board members to have the expertise, experience, and knowledge relative to our business. I just do. But then I add perspective. what's perspective mean? That's an outside in view. Outside in view, what do you mean by outside in view? Start with who your customers are and ask yourself, do you understand your customers? In fact, ideally, your board should be a good sounding board to tell you, about your customers. And there we get into diversity because you have a diverse customer base. I don't care which company is right. And you can cut diversity a number of different ways. So it's to your own best interest to have that kind of perspective in your boardroom. So table stakes for choosing board members experience, expertise, and knowledge, right? Added value of perspective is what makes you a great board member and board as a whole. Now, I can even go a little deeper if you want, cuz I just taught this last week in my MBA class. I said what do we mean by diversity? You all have, I'm sure, diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives right now and our companies, and I think that's great. Diversity in many ways is a hiring process. It's like getting the right board members in the room that have that kind of perspective, race, gender, geography, then of course we talk about equity. Well, Equity has a lot to do with your policies. Okay? And board members should provide oversight to that because all these things, you can distinguish'em, but not separate'em, right? The last is inclusion. And I come in really hard on this one and say, okay, now this is where you as leaders where you make the difference. And then the question is, how can you be a more inclusive fineing leader? And by the way, I'm speaking to the CEO now, I'm speaking to board members. How can you be a more conclusive fineing leader? There's some good research in this area, right? The most recent basically talks about the idea of, okay there are two things we need to leverage. One is once we get these people we've hired in the door and we're being equitable about it, right? You need to give'em a sense of belonging. So every board member that walks in the door with their diverse perspective needs to feel that they're welcome, right? They're invited. Diversity is a strength that enriches us all. Then on top of that, now by the way, consider that the vertical axis. Then the horizontal axis is something like, okay, do they have uniqueness that is valued? So now the question is, if we have diversity, what is it about your uniqueness that makes you diverse? And do we invite that and leverage it in what we do? So in boards, that means, you've got this experience, expertise, knowledge, and perspective, right? You bring it in, you make it feel like they are, they belong there. And two is that their, uniqueness is valued and a lot of that uniqueness is based on their perspective and the perspective, particularly of who your customers are because your customers are diverse. There's a long answer. Yes, a professor, that's what you get. So

Suzan 29:26

that's why I'm asking professors, cause I want really good answers with details. Please. Speaking of details, you gave me a heads up that you have a story to share about JetBlue because there is a story around a particular board that gave effective feedback to A C E O. Yeah. And I'd love for you to talk about how this really helped elevate JetBlue's performance and value. Yeah.

Bill 29:51

This is one of those stories where you think it's a story of failure, but it's really not. David Neman is the person that's the protagonist of this case study that I, again, case study, I discuss in the book. And David Neman is what I call a serial entre. I like this story because David Neman started off, by the way with starting his own airline called Morris Air. He then was hired on over by Southwest, which is, it's still the gold standard in terms of low cost carrier, getting the cattle call, but you pay less for a seat. By the way, last year, about six months, and they got rid of him because he's more of an entrepreneurial, they had a business model that worked and they didn't deviate from it because it was a low cost carrier. So he left there, and then he formed his airline called JetBlue. You know about JetBlue, right? And things were just going beautifully for for JetBlue he even came to Columbia and talked about his next idea of what he was gonna try and do for, to improve on the quality of air travel, et cetera which is an interesting story itself. But make a long story short, they ran into a crisis, and I don't know if you recall, but on Valentine's Day again, this was back in the last decade, there was a tremendous snowstorm and he was operating out of J F K Airport in New York City, and their airlines couldn't get off the tarmac. In fact, they had some people sitting in their aircraft waiting to take off for eight hours. It was just a disaster. And when they went back and did a, what I would call a postmortem they found out operationally. They just were not tight. They just were not tight. They were always dreaming of the future. They were not dealing with what would be the operational challenge necessarily of the present. And David admitted with his board, he was chairman of the board at the time, and ceo and he said, I'm not the right guy. And this was a closed door session. I'm not the right guy to get into the da. But David Barker is definitely, he was the c o at the time. He said, let's move him into the c e O job. I'll just go to chair. whereas a lot of people think he was fired. No, he made the shift knowing his weakness in discussion with his board. Of course, the event itself pointed it out now. The rest of the story is David Newman went down to Brazil and started another airline called Azul, which is doing very fine. He's a serial entrepreneur. He's not a coo, o, o, chief Operating Officer. But he is a chief executive leader, so I still hold him up as a great leader. it's just not a good manager.

Suzan 32:20

It's such a good story because it's also rooted in his self-awareness of what his strength that strengths are. That's right. And to then let go of this really successful endeavor and start another one that's again, rooted in his strengths, but leave the one that's more mature in the hands of someone whose strengths are needed at that time. That's a really good story.

Bill 32:38

You just answered the final exam question. That's it. Perfect. Haha, that's it.

Suzan 32:42

I also am curious too, because, you've done all this work on boards and CEOs. Is there still something, a research challenge or a problem that is keeping you up at night that you're still grappling with?

Bill 32:53

Le let's this, he'll appreciate, since it is November of 2022, I'm getting calls every day to talk about Elon Musk. Now, Elon Musk doesn't keep me up at night, but what keeps me up at night is the, the inability. Of us to understand that there's an effective model out there that one should be studying and be knowledgeable of with regard to effective leadership. And the CEO's boss, tough love in the boardroom speaks to that, right? And so, I always say, watch out for where this organization, if you've got an organization and this is of what keeps me up at night, that is, is in trouble or what I call inner trough. In other words, if they don't change the way they do things, they're gonna die. Then you can invite in that kind of change leader. And to some degree, that's the appeal of an Elon Musk right at this point in time. Cause they figure that he'll break things up. The quote that I used is, he reminded me of the Vietnam War. Military leader who said I had to burn down the village to save it. And that's the scorched earth approach. And that's where we're at right now in terms of his leadership implementation. But here's what keeps me up at night. Can he make the shift or is he always going to be the change leader? So he carries around a hammer and everything starts to look like a nail to him. He just keeps flailing away and hitting at it. And this is a guy who is a genius, right? Certified This is a guy who, there's no question, has done great, innovative things. But the question I have is, can he lead? Over time, delete over time requires more than just being a one trick pony. His one trick is he's a disruptive force. And you're talking about

Suzan 34:49

Elon Musk specifically, but also people like Elon Musk who have that same sort of mindset of being, the person with the hammer looking for

Bill 34:57

nails. Yes. So anyway, that's what keeps me up at night. I say to myself, and I teach the course on executive leadership, Columbia, business school's, MBA for executives, executives are in the classroom. And I say, look just gotta be aware of the fact that I know you like to, because of the nature of who you are, behave a certain way. And that might work in certain circumstances, but it won't at all. And so the. The key for your success going forward is your versatility, your agility. And so I, I struggle with that a lot in terms of what I'm teaching in writing about. I was gonna

Suzan 35:34

ask you what advice you would give current or emerging leaders who are really hoping to make a big impact on our organization. Is that part around the agility, a key piece of advice that you would give?

Bill 35:46

Yeah. Yeah. It is a key piece. I get into the idea that I have a formula right? Of course, we always have formulas. I always tell people, okay, you wanna move into a leadership role? Here's how you're gonna be successful. First of all, do you understand yourself? Aristotle had it right? Know thyself, right? And that means what's your strength? What do you bring to the table, right? And at the same time, what are your vulnerabilities? What do you need? From others. Okay, so know yourself. And then the secondly is, cause you've moved into a leadership role, you need to control against always trying to satisfy your needs, right? Or having people see the world the way you do. You need to control that instinct, right? Because there's a tendency that, look, I feel strongly about this is this way. You need to see it. Okay? Now the third part is you gotta know others. Cuz if you're gonna be a leader, you gotta have followers. If you don't have followers, you're not a leader. So you gotta have right knowledge of others. And that takes time to understand what is the way they see the world, what their particular need is. And then the fourth. Now a lot of, by the way, I'll ask the class this. I say, okay, it's a logical syllogism. Know yourself, control yourself, know others. What's the fourth? And somebody yells out, control others. I say, don't you wish And the answer is no. It's the fourth, is you have to do something for others. So leaders in many ways need to, bring people to the point where they achieve there.

Suzan 37:12

Know yourself, control yourself, know others. Do something for others.

Bill 37:17

Yes. You got it. That's all. So keep that in mind as a formula for success of a leader. Absolutely. And, we have other formulas for every things, et cetera, et cetera. But for this one, I always say in my class, if you forget everything else, just keep that in mind. And by the way, there's a lot of research that backs up that formula, particularly the work. Emotional intelligence and social intelligence as you move from me, know yourself, control yourself to we know others and do something for'em. Social intelligence, you bring those two together, they became very powerful behavioral elements of one's leadership.

Suzan 37:51

Absolutely. Yeah. That's very compelling. Would go well on a wall poster. someone's office.

Bill 37:57

It's in my book. Don't worry about it.

Suzan 37:59

There you go. So we've gotten a really good taste of what your classroom environment is like at Columbia. Can you also give us a sense of what you think makes the executive learning environment unique at Columbia

Bill 38:12

Business School? I, as I've been around for 20, is my 26th year. And I've been academic director for most of that time. So here's generally what I, if I stripped it down, by the way, I'm not gonna deny it helps to have the brand right, of an Ivy League business school. That's very helpful. All right? Yes. Now you can only live on your brand so long. You have to deliver. And what do we deliver? We deliver, of course, we're a top research university international. All right? So we have great scholarship going on, what I call primary research, which then informs our secondary research means what do you do with it, right? Into the classroom. So when students. come to Columbia Business School Exec Ed. We make the transition and the transition is this this is just a brief little segue. What is it that we know about scholarship? Scholarships is about research. That's this primary research. It's about teaching, right? The delivery of knowledge. Okay. But that's not enough in exec ed. Then there's the third part of scholarship, which we sometimes miss, which is the application of knowledge, which is the answer is what good is the theory if you can't put it into practice? So Columbia uses that formula, me to say, look, start where we are of strength research university. Put it into our content, what it is we teach based on that research, right? And by the way, research, not just at Columbia, but from around the world, what we teach that we consider to be right. The best practice or knowledge and then ultimately how you can use it. So we get into the youth side. Now, has that served us Well, I can tell you, you know, I wasn't at the university for what, five years and we ended up four years in a row as number one in the world by the ft. In terms of executive education I could give you more in terms of what all we do, et cetera, et cetera. But we've moved into a whole new area now where you don't have to come and be face-to-face with Bill anymore. That's enough to scare most people away. But we are available in person, but we're live online. We're online, so you can be synchronous or asynchronous or we can blend them Now, putting all those together, we've got right now over 35 different programs that we offer in open. In leadership, finance, investing, strategy, innovation, digital business, and more. You know what? I like to think and it's not like we're alone in this area, but we think we hold our own. Columbia Business School has a lot to offer in its exec head area.

Suzan 40:51

Yeah when we're talking about leaders who are maybe too engrossed in their own image or have let success that has happened, let you know, rise to their head, what better way to get back to the ground than to also to look around for learning opportunities that teach you about yourself, that puts you in touch with people who are going through similar challenges. And that puts you also in touch with world-class professors who've seen it at all, or most of it all, and can help you take the next leap. So I, that's why I wanted to start this podcast because I think a lot of executives just aren't even aware that beyond the executive MBA or, even just the standard b a, there are so many other opportunities and like you said, you don't even have to. To the school physically. You can do it online. That's right.

Bill 41:37

And here's what Columbia offers, another unique part. We have what's called a certificate of business excellence. You take 18 hours or days of study with us. You then receive the certificate, and by the way, you choose the courses you want of those. Various courses. Like for example, I teach one that goes for three days on teams. There's three right there out of the 18, you're one sixth complete. You complete those. You now become an alumnus of Columbia Business School. You now receive invites to all of the alumni affair programs of Columbia Business School and are full fledged participant in them, and you get a Columbia email address. So it's like anybody who's got an mba, just the difference is you're a practicing right executive and you've been certified to know, I guess you might say, The best of business from the business school, which is at the center of business in New

Suzan 42:42

York City. I Yes, that's a really great example of where you would look at someone and say, no, the b A isn't the only path here. You can advance your learning, your network, your impact. That's right. And at that's right. The same time, you don't have to step out of the workforce that's right away from the great project that's that you're currently in charge of. This has been absolutely delightful and insightful and fun. I'm gonna end with asking you the last question, which I always ask everyone. In a nutshell, what does leadership mean to

Bill 43:08

you? I basically, I think leadership is a partnership. And what I mean by that is let's first establish what a leader is. A leader is somebody with followers, right? Absence followers, you're not a leader. So then what kind of relationships should you have with those followers? And that is one of partnership. And I like to think that one's legacy as a leader. It's not gonna be based on your resume or your vte, right? What you've done is what others who have done, who have followed you that's the best stamp of your leadership cred. So hopefully that answers it.

Suzan 43:48

It does. Thank you so much for your time and for your insight. It was an honor to have you on the show. I can't wait to share this episode with the world.

Bill 43:55

Good. Good. Thank you, Susan. I appreciate it.

44:00

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